Alexann Sharp and Lehan Xu discuss the impact of technology on performance industries, particularly VR concerts and broadcast theater. They note that COVID-19 accelerated the adoption of VR concerts, initially by smaller artists due to cost and uncertainty. Examples include Sabrina Carpenter and Kid Leroy's Meta collaborations. They highlight technical challenges like audio quality and headset comfort. In broadcast theater, historical examples date back to the 1930s, with modern initiatives like the Met Opera's "Live in HD" and National Theater Live. Both discuss the balance between accessibility and maintaining the authenticity of live performances.
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Transcript
Hannah Brainard 00:00
You're listening to Tech in the Arts, the podcast series of the Arts Management and Technology Laboratory at Carnegie Mellon University. The goal of our podcast series is to exchange ideas, bring awareness, and stay on top of the trends.
Alexann Sharp 00:13
My name is Alex Ann sharp, and I am in the Master of Entertainment Industry Management program at Carnegie Mellon.
Lehan Xu 00:22
My name is Lehan Xu, and I am a master of Arts Management student at CMU.
Alexann Sharp 00:27
Today, we'll be discussing how performance industries are expanding through technology. As grad students, I feel like it's really important for us to be aware of how technologies are impacting our specific industries,
Lehan Xu 00:41
and I think technology is not only impacting the practitioners, but also the audiences as well. People's perception of technology is shaped by external factors. For example, covid has changed people's habits during the pandemic, but also has a lot of lasting effects, and today, more people prefer indoor activities compared to the pre covid era. I know Alex and you were doing some research on VR concerts. Would you consider it as a product of covid 19?
Alexann Sharp 01:10
I would definitely say that covid 19 was a huge impact on music in general, but it was also had a big impact on how VR started to become more common in the industry, we saw VR concerts become a lot more popular because artists and labels really had to find a way to reach their audience. Even after the pandemic, there's so much potential. I think it was just a start of this development, this technology in the music industry, but since it's began, it's evolved, and I really think that there's still potential for it. There's just a lot of benefits to it. And now that it's becoming more popular, people are able to see some of their favorite artists whenever and wherever, because all they have to have is like a VR headset.
Lehan Xu 02:02
How many artists have done VR concerts, and if you're like a specific kind of artist, who have done more than the others.
Alexann Sharp 02:10
It definitely started with smaller artists, or artists who were smaller at the time, because I think some of the bigger labels were hesitant to start because I think people just don't know how it can be used. There's just so many possibilities for the different formats for VR, and knowing what audiences want, or even if they want it, is a big question that people had, obviously, because when you're working with larger artists, you're gonna pay them a lot more, and so it's much more of an investment. So I think it started with smaller artists, but now we're seeing big artists. For example, Sabrina carpenter worked with meta, and Kid Leroy also has recorded a VR concert with meta. And so if you have a meta headset, you can go to in the meta horizon, and they have the concerts that you can actually join. But also, there's been another format with Megan, thee stallion and k pop group tomorrow by together, for example, they've been able to work with this one company called Amazing VR, who produces VR concerts. They've been like the pioneers for VR concerts, because so many people were hesitant to enter that. So whenever I was doing some of this research on VR concerts, I actually reached out to cook Kim, who is a former CMU alum, but he's also the Vice President of production with amaze VR. And getting to speak with him, it was really interesting to hear about the future of VR and sort of his vision, and more about how they're making concerts more accessible, especially like after the pandemic and before or during the pandemic. But I know covid also had a really similar impact in the theater industry. I know you've been doing research on broadcast theater.
Lehan Xu 04:00
So the pandemic definitely accelerated the trend of digitalizing performances, not just limited to live broadcasts, because when the theater were closed, they were trying to figure out ways to stay connected with their audience. Communities. There are a lot of companies and organizations trying to use online streaming and even using zoom to stay connected to their audiences, but the theater live broadcast actually has a surprisingly long history. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. So one of the earliest examples was in 1931 when Metropolitan Opera begins its Saturday live radio broadcast. And by 1938 the BBC aired the first televised live theater performance.
Alexann Sharp 04:41
Oh, that's so cool. Just out of curiosity, what was that performance?
Lehan Xu 04:45
It was a play called when we are married. It tells the story of three middle aged couples being informed that they were not legally married, as they jointly celebrate their silver weddings.
Alexann Sharp 04:56
Well, I'd be interested to see that. So when. Did TV broadcasts start to expand outside the UK?
Lehan Xu 05:03
It was around the 1950s that the American networks, such as NBC, ncbc, all of those fake names, brought musicals to TV audiences. Though, back at the time, these TV live broadcasts were staged in the studios, just like how people were filming TV series and reality shows, because back then, due to technical limitations, they could not do it in theaters. And then another thing I really wanted to mention was that in 1964 Richard Burton's Hamlet popularized the idea of filming stage productions for his movie theater audiences. It was not recorded live due to the technology constraints at that time, but it was aired very quickly and then was advertised as something similar to a real time recording of the performance. And this brought a lot of inspirations to future practitioners.
Alexann Sharp 05:59
That's really cool. What does it look like? More like a modern era broadcast theater?
Lehan Xu 06:04
I think the first decade of the 21st Century definitely marked a new era for theater, live broadcast in 2006 the Met opera launched a program called Live in HD, which brought live opera performances to movie theaters. And then by 2009 three years later, National Theater live. It was a program launched by National Theater in the UK. Began real time cinema screenings of UK stage shows. And these two large organizations were soon joined by other organizations, including the Royal Shakespeare Company in the UK, the Broadway HD here in the US, and then also HowlRound and many other nonprofit organizations. And then there were more involvement happening during covid And after.
Alexann Sharp 06:49
That's really interesting. I didn't know that it had such a long history. VR technology, obviously is still developing a lot. It's actually been around for a while, but it's definitely more popular now because of gaming, and I know Mark Zuckerberg and meta have become huge in this industry, making it a lot more accessible with their meta quest headsets, and obviously even in the VR concert space, like I discussed before, working with Kid Leroy and Sabrina carpenter. So they're really at the forefront of all of this, and they see the potential, but the technology itself only started being used in the music industry in the past several years. But I really do think that the technology has a ways to go before it's more widely adopted.
Lehan Xu 07:35
I also know that national theater they were launching a program to explore more opportunities for theater, especially immersive theater, and then how VR could be implemented in it to make a whole new experiences for more audiences. But I also know that there is still under development. So I'm just wondering, do you think the technology not being there yet is the largest drawback VR concerts and also VR theater are now facing.
Alexann Sharp 08:02
I would say that this is probably one of the biggest drawbacks. For sure, when I was speaking with cook Kim, the VP of production at amaze VR, we discussed some of the technology and the limitations, but as a part of my research, I actually had some students at Carnegie Mellon experience these VR concerts, I had them watch some of the maze VRS concerts, which are more formatted and a more immersive personal experience. And those experiences, it's just you and the artist. There's no avatars. There's no social connection in those settings when you're alone, the meta concerts, it's more of a social experience, because you are watching the performances with avatars, so you're able to interact with other people. And so when I was talking with cook about that technology and why people are so hesitant, one of the things he said is that because concerts are such an it's a music experience. The audio is so important, though, one of the drawbacks is that these meta headsets, audio is just not as good, and so one of the ways that you can come around this is you can wear headphones or headsets, but with that, you're really blocking out the sounds around you. So the way that they've combat that, as one of the pioneers of VR concerts is they've started hosting something called like a theater tour. They've actually made it much more accessible for fans by having these VR concerts in theaters, so fans will go to the theater, and they're actually provided with headsets, and one of the reasons they do this is because it's more of a social experience, because you get to go with friends, and even though the show itself is very immersive and individual, because you can hear the people around you, it's the excitement from the other fans, it's much more of a social experience, which is something people. To look for in concerts, and then also, the audio is so much better at theaters, so you can hear what's around you. You can experience it with people, and you're provided with the headsets. So that's one of the ways the technology, they're really trying, because it's still really developing. The quality the graphics aren't really great yet. People say the headsets are too heavy. Coke talked about there being lighter headset because it can be very disorienting and heavy on people's heads. So because of these technological limitations regarding audio, regarding the heavy headsets, it's definitely one of the main drawbacks, and the reason people aren't finding these experiences as enjoyable, even though there's a lot of potential and technology is always evolving. It's something that we just have to see where it's going.
Lehan Xu 10:49
Since I'm taking the communication extra class this semester, I've been wearing VR headset a lot, and I feel like as someone who wears glasses, it's definitely also something that people need to be considering when they're deciding if they are going to see a VR concert or not, like I know the meta quest three, they allow me to wear my glasses when I'm using the headset. But also sometimes it's just not that comfortable.
Alexann Sharp 11:16
And that's one of the things a lot of people said, especially with the glasses, it's just so limiting. And also people say that VR doesn't feel as immersive because you still are seeing things through a box. But we're always hoping that technology will develop and also become more accessible, but also more affordable, because headsets are pretty expensive, but compared with the cost of tickets to in person concerts, and then paying for travel and accommodations, I found that it has become much more affordable for people in the long run, but I know also in your own industry, speaking about not just affordability, but accessibility, how has broadcast theater shaped those aspects of the industry?
Lehan Xu 12:01
So in terms of accessibility, I definitely think live rock has bring the theater performances to a larger audiences, because we know that sometimes theater tickets, while it's definitely cheaper than the concerts, they still may not be affordable to everyone, and also, for example, though there are Broadway tourings, it may not go to the city where you're living, or may not go in the time that you can see the show. Theater live broadcasts definitely bring accessibility and affordability to many audiences who have geographical or financial limitations through providing cheaper tickets and also more locations that people can go to I definitely think this is one of the biggest advantages of theater live broadcast.
Alexann Sharp 12:45
Definitely, and like you mentioned, accessibility is pretty huge, because something that the CEO of amaze VR, Steve Lee, he mentioned that his company and what they're doing is making these artists and these concerts so much more accessible to people, because obviously, artists the world is huge. They can't go everywhere that they want to go, but they still think it's important to connect with their fans, and so if they continue to expand these theater concert tours, I think it's just an amazing opportunity for fans to still feel connected to the music and have a similar opportunity to get involved, even though I know the meta headsets, or just VR headsets in general, are pretty expensive because technology is developing, I'm hoping that it will become more affordable in the future. I do see the value in it becoming so much more accessible as well, something that the CEO of amaze VR, Steve Lee also talked about is the fact that they're not trying to replace in person experiences. This isn't an exact alternative. It's just another way of experiencing performances. So I know that whenever I was working with the other Carnegie Mellon students, and having them try out these headsets and these experiences and give me some feedback. They talked about how they really preferred in person concerts. And I think that's one of the drawbacks that people feel, is that it just there's too many aspects of being in person and experiencing that performance that they miss, like the social connection, the feeling, the energy, the connectedness with the artist, it actually being live and in front of you, when you compare these two, there's obviously massive differences, and I think that really holds people back from being willing to try these technologies. But I think these companies and these labels and artists, they really need to focus on marketing it as another way to enjoy entertainment, not a replacement, because once you start to compare, I feel like there's so much room to find dissatisfaction.
Lehan Xu 14:50
I agree, and I feel like for theater, live broadcast, one of its advantages, definitely is the real time transmission that it provides. Because since it's real time. It feels more authentic to the audiences, and also when you're sitting there and watching and knows that there's like a risk for something going wrong, and then there's this vulnerability of theater that only exists in live theater. It makes your experience more engaging and exciting. However, I agree with you that theater live broadcast should not be considered as a replacement of the real theater performance, but instead it should be treated as a different experience, because no matter where and how you watch the live broadcast, you're still watching the screen, and it can make the experience feel more distant. And while the platforms like National Theater at home and met live at home makes the performances even more accessible, since you do not need to go to the movie theater anymore, the smaller the screen I feel would also means that the smaller the crowd watching the show with you, and also the less social experience that you can get out of it. And I remember reading an interview from David Sable, who was the former head of digital media at the National Theater in the UK, and he said that after a few years exploring National Theater live, they believed that it should not be treated as a second class experience of the real performance, but instead as an experience on its own. I think part of the reason behind was that when you were filming the performance on your camera, there are a lot of things that you need to consider through the choices of angles. And then if you're going to zoom in or zoom out in certain scenes, they are like the choices you make. And I feel that it can be considered as a recreation of the original performance instead of application or replacement of it.
Alexann Sharp 16:45
Yeah, that's really interesting that you bring up the fact of perspective and control, because I really think that does impact experience. That's one thing that a lot of the students said in their feedback of the concerts I had them watch with meta and amaze VR is that they felt like the lack of control and perspective was a big part in their satisfaction. Because when you're in a concert, you can move around. You can change what you're looking at like. You can actually look off to the side. Because personally, when I'm watching a concert, I like to see what's happening around me. I like to see the fans. I also like to watch the musicians or what's happening off on the side of the stage. So whenever you're in a VR concert, you have such limited ability to do that. I know in the meta concerts, though, since you're an avatar, you can move around, but the perspective definitely plays a role in all of that. And so the way that you lose control with VR, like not having that agency, really does impact people's experiences.
Lehan Xu 17:48
I remember there was an article that I read when I was doing my research, and it was about how the trace of angles and then basically how the camera worked would shape people's conception about the performance, especially for those who did not have the chance to go to see a live performance before they saw the recording, or like the live broadcast or the VR version of it. I think it's pretty interesting that they said it has almost and pedagogical power for those people who had limited experiences watching live performances because they would just take what they saw as part of their conception about what this kind of live performance was. So it was definitely shaping their conception about what theater is, what live concert is. So I feel like that's also something that the practitioners may need to take into consideration. I think it's like a balance, how you can create something that you like, but also make sure that the audiences know more about what a kind of performing art is.
Alexann Sharp 18:54
I think people, practitioners, labels, artists, in order for this just really succeed or just reach a broader audience, you need to know how to discuss what they're working on in these projects. Because, like I said before, marketing is trying to convince people it's like not replacing each other, that there's value in both of these industries. And so I think going forward, even though I know that broadcast theater is not going to replace in person performances, I know that VR concerts are not going to replace in person concerts, I really want to encourage people to be open to trying these different ways of viewing performances, because I think that there's still value, there's obviously the benefits that we talked about, there's obviously some of the drawbacks, but I do think that there's a future for both of these industries, and if people are willing to give it a try, and not to necessarily compare, but to embrace some of the benefits that come with it, they're obviously allowed to have their. Opinions on their preferences, but I think it would be really amazing if people were to just give it a try.
Lehan Xu 20:06
If you think back through history, technology has not always been the thing in the history of the performing arts. It doesn't really have a history as long as theater or like other art forms. However, ever since it emerged when we have like electricity in theaters and in concert venues, and we have more advanced sound systems and lighting, and in the past few decades, media, every time these kind of new technology emerged, there were always doubts and confusion around it, but I feel that we could figure out a way to implement them into the performing arts industry through some practices. And I feel like theater live broadcast maybe something more mature, and then VR concert is something that just emerged in the past few years. And I feel that if we keep an open mind and be willing to try them out and give feedback, then we can all help make the experiences better and better.
Alexann Sharp 21:07
And like you said, the history of technology, I do think there's always been resistance to change, but also respecting the originality, respecting the art, respecting theater as a whole, respecting the musical experience as a whole. I think that's important whenever considering these new technologies, and I don't think we're losing that. So I would just encourage people listening be open minded and maybe give it a try. And if you like it, that's awesome. If you don't, then there are obviously many ways to enjoy arts and entertainment. Thank you so much for discussing your research. I really loved learning about broadcast theater and about the history. I'm definitely going to look into some of the broadcast performances. Maybe you can offer me some recommendations, because I think this is a really cool thing they're doing. I think it's offering a lot of accessibility and broadening the industry as a whole.
Lehan Xu 22:06
Yeah, for sure. I will send you a list, and I'm also very glad to learn more about VR concerts. And I feel like this is definitely something I wanted to try out.
Alexann Sharp 22:15
Yes, you should check out Sabrina Carpenter. She's amazing, for sure.
Hannah Brainard 22:20
Thank you for listening to this episode of Tech in the Arts, the podcast series of the Arts Management and Technology Laboratory. If you found this episode informative, educational or inspirational, be sure to check out our other episodes and share with the arts or technology aficionados in your life. Check out our website at amt-lab.org, or you can email us at info@amt-lab.org, follow us on Instagram at Tech in the Arts, or Facebook and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. Thanks for listening.