In this episode of our Let’s Talk podcast, host Maraika Lumholdt talks with B Crittenden, Manager of Corporate Support at the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra about how live streaming changed the arts world during the COVID-19 lockdowns, and how it continues to serve audiences despite the return to in-person programming.
B Crittenden
But if their audiences were responsive to that, and if they were able to, if your priority was to just engage with your audience and give them content, maybe it was free, maybe it was paid. I think they were able to do that that time.
Maraika Lumholdt
Welcome to another interview episode of Tech in the arts, the podcast series on the arts management and technology laboratory at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Maraika Lumholdt, I'm the host of tech in the arts. And today I'm joined by B Crittenden, the former Technology Manager here, at AMT Lab and current Manager of Corporate Support at the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. B, thanks so much for joining me today. And I'm very excited to discuss the wild world of streaming with you.
B Crittenden
Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah. So Marika, I wonder if you could just kick off by sharing a bit more about the state of streaming in the US right now?
Maraika Lumholdt
Yeah, definitely. So streaming, you know, still relatively new in the grand scheme of the world. But it's been around for a while at this point. But even still on the rise, more and more people are streaming each day, even after many, many years of consistent growth. So the biggest growth right now is coming from what are referred to as SVOD models, which stands for subscription video on demand. And it's free counterpart, AVOD or advertising-supported video on demand. Those are platforms that can be used for free in exchange for watching ads. And it's also a really great acquisition tactic to then convert users to a paid ad free or reduced ad plan. So when you think about a typical subscription service, like Hulu, you know, they've several different plans, you can opt into with differing levels of ads at different price points. So, you know, we're seeing a lot of people sign up for that free or cheaper version, and then end up paying more to remove those ads. According to Kantar, as of December 2021, over 85% of US households have some kind of video subscription. Now, that's almost 110 million households. So just massive numbers, when you think about it, and there continues to be a lot of movement--more platforms emerge every day, or they merge with each other or they're acquired. There's a lot happening, and it's still ever changing, despite being around now for a while.
B Crittenden
It makes me think about the recent news about Netflix changing their password sharing policies, and how when these big announcements come out, every buddy kind of speculates about the future of these subscription services. And I can't, I mean, we'll see, but I can't imagine a future where Netflix is not dominant. Yeah, it is hard to imagine.
Maraika Lumholdt
I think that same data from Kantar actually said that prime amazon prime is the top in terms of number of, of subscribers, which surprised me a little bit. But Netflix is one of those. I mean, you know, they were one of the first streaming platforms to gain the size of following that they have.
B Crittenden
I had no idea that Prime was above Netflix at this point.
Maraika Lumholdt
No, me neither that surprised me. And I think they do offer maybe a little more flexibility in terms of plan options than Netflix, though Netflix does seem to be coming out with a lot of new updates to pricing models. And yeah, number of users, like you said, I feel like I've heard many announcements from them in the past year that they end up taking back in terms of cracking down on Password sharing, and all that.
So your research here on your AMT Lab focused a lot on how performing arts organizations can use and are using streaming. How are you seeing organizations at that point, use streaming?
B Crittenden
Yeah, so if we get in a time machine and go back to fall of 2020, which is when I started this research, it was at a very specific point in time, you know, we were all still pretty much on lockdown. And performing arts organizations were being forced to look at how they were going to reach their audiences, when they were not able to put on live performances for the most part. Prior to this, there were some arts organizations who had explored this area, you had big ones like the Metropolitan Opera, London Symphony Orchestra. In the US, at least, this was not something that was being particularly prioritized. And then all of a sudden, a pandemic sets in and everyone was really forced to think about how we do this streaming thing. So there are a couple of ways that people started doing this. There was the SVOD and AVOD models that that organizations were doing and they were positioning that on, either on their own websites like creating their own and branding their on streaming platforms, or some mid- and smaller- sized organizations were just kind of putting Vimeo links up for free or pay-per-view was also an option that that some organizations were doing at this point. And then another area that I really wanted to look at in my research was looking at streaming platforms that were aggregating content from many different organizations. So, one of those, and the one that I looked at the most closely was called Marquee TV, which still exists. And it started in the UK in 2018. And then had a very timely expansion to the US in early 2020. Right before the pandemic. Yeah, I don't know if they could see the future and what was going on there. But they did have a huge bump in subscriptions, as one can imagine, in that sort of March, April, May, as people were trying to consume arts content from their own homes. So there are a few of these platforms. One that is European-based, that's big in classical music is called MediciTV. There are also some smaller ones that are a little bit more like experimental or contemporary, trying to serve a more niche audience.
Maraika Lumholdt
Because something I've noticed, as I've continued similar research to this this year is that I feel like it's really only the big, really big arts organizations that are able to support consistent streaming products. You know, it's definitely a big undertaking. And some of the organizations you mentioned are certainly big here in the US the Met opera, you know, is one that I think is has them a very sustainable and purposeful streaming platform that they've built themselves, it's their own, they're not distributing it through Marquee or any others. Would you say that was a trend you noticed in terms of what investment it takes to do something like that?
B Crittenden
Yeah, I would say two years ago, I wouldn't have a very strong answer for that. Because organizations big and small, we're looking at how to do this. And so I think it really depends on where streaming fits in your mission and how you want to reach your audiences. Because that's going to determine the you know, the investment that you're able to put into creating that sort of product. So at the time, smaller or smaller midsize organizations were able to make maybe not the most, like, high-tech, high-quality productions. But if their audiences were responsive to that, and if they were able to, if your priority was to just engage with your audience and give them content, maybe it was free, maybe it was paid. I think they were able to do that that time.
Now looking back, as organizations are able to sort of like redirect and pursue the the missions that kind of center live performance. Two years ago, no one had any idea how long this was actually going to last. So the big question was--is this something that we do need to make fit into our long term strategy? And that's why it's almost easier to talk about this, excluding the big organizations that were already doing this, like the Met were, it's really part of their, like, they've had a 10 year on ramp to this sort of thing. And it is part of their brand and their product, as opposed to trying to build something fresh, that your audiences may or may not have been expecting. One example is Opera Philadelphia. They're not a massive organization necessarily. But producing virtual content is a really big part of what they do. And they have had great success with it because it's central to to their mission and what they provide.
Maraika Lumholdt
So yeah, that's a great point. And I do I do feel like I can think of a lot of arts organizations I've looked at and dance in particular that has a really rich archive of footage of you know, they've been cataloging dance styles through history and they have so much digital content. And it's been interesting, interesting to see how they've been able to leverage that in ways that are authentic to their mission and in ways that are more engaging for audiences to supplement. You know, even if they're coming in person to adding on techniques like, you know, recommended videos, creating playlists for people, yeah, more ways they can dive into notes and behind the scenes and things like that. So that, to me feels like one of the most authentic expressions of what you're just speaking to, in terms of how it centers mission-based work, and reaching people in new and engaging ways. So that yeah, one stood out to me, as I've been looking into who's using it.
B Crittenden
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And I also think this is now that we can kind of look at the last few years in hindsight and see, okay, maybe at the time, we thought this was going to be a really big part of, of what we're doing for, you know, going forward. But I mean, I have seen, I was just looking at the, I think it was the San Francisco Symphony, they had this big announcement, they were launching their own subscription platform. And I'm pretty sure that just doesn't exist anymore because which is totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that, you know, at the time, no one knew, and sometimes you have to shift your priorities. But I think the biggest area of opportunity now that potentially, this isn't exclusive to those, like, bigger organizations that you referenced earlier, is providing that supplemental content to engage with your audiences to offer is, you know, a benefit for donors and subscribers to be able to access behind the scenes content, be able to access video that provide commentary. So to cater to your super fans. That yeah, I think that's a that's a huge area that even if you're not necessarily, you know, putting a concert on your website or streaming service every single month, there's opportunity there.
Maraika Lumholdt
I appreciate that you brought up the tie to membership, because I do think that's something that when people or organizations first started rolling stuff out, during COVID, it was you know, here's something everyone, a lot of people were offering free content, because that was just the only way to engage at the time. But I have also seen that shift towards putting it now behind a paywall, or, you know, subscription or membership-based model and tying it closely together with development and fundraising efforts as what you just said, kind of that exclusive benefit for others.
B Crittenden 13:01
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's something that is really tricky. I mean, at the top, so in the summer, late spring, summer of 2020. Research was finding that while the majority of people had consumed at least one performing arts, performance, virtually, it was the percentage of those people who had actually paid for that was in like the low teens. Yeah, both in the US and in the UK. And so that's in addition to just reaching people with your virtual content. It's what are people valuing bet enough to actually pay for it? Both when we were in lockdown, and now it's almost trickier because now there's the live option as well, in some cases, if you're offering similar experiences. So yeah, that's just another hurdle to overcome.
Maraika Lumholdt 14:00
Yeah, definitely. I do think everyone seems to be working through that and understanding what their audiences value and want. Yeah. I will say that as more and more audience research comes out of, of behavioral trends in each new phase of the pandemic, and I know “new normal” is thrown around a lot. But we've been through a lot of new normals recently, that there are still you know, a decent chunk of people who are holding out and returning in person, even as those experiences are possible in terms of mandates and restrictions. So, Wolf Brown came out with a study recently, Broadway audiences we're about a fifth of people are so refraining from attending a performance until infection rates are low. And perhaps not super surprisingly, but still interesting that they found this to be particularly true for older audiences who are reporting hesitation over returning to in person programming in similar data on off Broadway, you know, shows the same thing a lot, a vast majority of those respondents are willing to return only with a high level of safety protocols in place and almost 10% report that they would not ever be confident in returning to in person programming. So there is still a group that, you know, may be better reached and engaged with digitally that I think is important for organizations to remember, especially in terms of, you know, accessibility and, and thinking of how they can engage with their communities, which goes back to the mission that you were talking about earlier.
B Crittenden
Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. You brought that up. And in addition to accessibility, there's just the factor that video and multimedia can actually provide an experience that can't be necessarily compared to a live experience. They're not the same thing. Yeah. And research from the, you know, 2020, that I found when I was looking into this was that audiences were enjoying virtual content, but it was, it could not replace a live experience. Yeah. And so one of the biggest recommendations that was made was that video and virtual content, it should have its own value. And organization should be trying to leverage what can't be achieved in a live performance. So whether that's like, behind the scenes, content, commentary, whether that's the actual, like, design of the production itself, and how the camera interacts with the performance. So that's no surprise at all. But in addition to continuing to try to reach our fans and audiences who don't feel comfortable coming back yet, I think it's advantageous to also think about reaching people who would be interested and potentially onboarding them into what you do. Yeah. Using virtual.
Maraika Lumholdt
Yeah, definitely. And I think, what you what you said about creating new experiences that are their own thing definitely interests me. And I've seen a couple of organizations, the one that stands out the most to me is the National Theatre in London, who has a huge streaming platform, incredibly popular reaches people all over the world. During COVID, or peak COVID, I should say, they're able to still in it. During peak COVID, when they were not allowed to have audiences in person, they were able to film their production of Romeo and Juliet in a more cinematic way, you know, get close ups things that would not happen if they had just filmed a standard performance. So definitely blurred the line between film and theater. But still, in a way, I think that brought that live-ness of theater to it was still filming a live production in a way that traditional film would not capture. And I thought that was an interesting scenario that they took and brought into the world. And I don't have any data, but I'm sure that production sold very well for them, that film production. And so I think that's where I'm intrigued to see how organizations take it and put their own spin on it and do those different things to make it stand out as its own programming their offering.
B Crittenden 18:51
Yeah, yeah, this might be a good time to start talking about like the aggregated streaming platforms, because I that just reminded me of how, like I said, a lot of my research looked at the streaming platforms, like Marquee TV, that aggregate content. And how well something that I found from my research was that if you are able to form a partnership with a company like this, who has the streaming service, if that is an option for you, it's really going to be the most advantageous if you are seeking global audiences and looking to really expand your reach on a pretty grand level. And one of the biggest advantages of that is getting data in return, at least in the United States where that's possible.
If you are an organization that is more interested in trying to connect with your current audience on a more local or regional level. Trying to get your content out on one of these aggregated streaming services, that's not going to get you as you want. Because they really are highly curated catalogs that are catering to people with certain affinities. So if you are an organization that either is a London Symphony Orchestra or something that is recognized across the world, Washington Ballet is also has also been on Marquee TV, you have this national and global reputation and you're looking to expand yourself. That's great. So if you are a opera company that incorporates puppeteering, and I don't know Baroque music-
Maraika Lumholdt 21:00
I want to see that
B Crittenden 21:03
-maybe being on a streaming service would be great for you. Because it'd be easier to for for fans who are interested in that to find you there. But yeah, if you're an orchestra, for example, that is just trying to serve your region and connect with those audiences. You're probably it's probably more worth your time to invest in using your own website or your own branded platform to to reach people virtually.
Maraika Lumholdt 21:40
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What kind of effort there is in terms of getting on a platform, an aggregate platform, like Marquee, or Medici?
B Crittenden 21:49
I would say it isn't highly formalized. As far as I can tell. There are a couple of different ways that this can be done. More traditionally, it's all done through licensing. So your organization is already working with a distributor. And then the streaming platform is actually working with the distributor to get a license for your content. More recently, at least in Marquee TVs case, they were starting to form partnerships with the organizations themselves. And Marquee TV was doing that in some cases, they were seeking companies out and some cases, the organizations were seeking Marquee TV out and I got the sense that it was really they were looking at how that organization's content was going to fit into their sort of portfolio of offerings.
I think it's important to remember that these are not like encyclopedic, archival, just endless offerings of content, they're pretty intentional in what they're looking to offer to their subscribers. So it seems to be a little, maybe more of an art than a science in terms of counting on getting on one, one of these and you know, there aren't that many. So it's not like you can try 20 different streaming services until you finally get your content on one. So yeah, it's, at the time, at least, like I said, maybe that landscape scape has evolved in the last couple of years. But yeah, it's very much like trying to make a relationship with the platform. I know that marquee TV and said they really are trying to prioritize long term partnerships and are kind of looking at those partnerships on an annual basis, but want to be able to have more long term relationships.
Maraika Lumholdt
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. They have to reach their audience too and hit them with what they want to see and engage with.
A lot of the examples that you've brought up have started in Europe. And I think, something that we've run into, in the US, at least in especially in the theatre space is how unions tie in to streaming. It's I mean, so many performing arts are heavily unionized theater, especially. And there have been restrictions in union contracts prior to COVID. And prior to the push towards digital content and streaming that prevent a lot of distribution that would otherwise be possible. But I just wanted to throw that out there that that is a big consideration here and potentially why we haven't seen quite as many platforms take off like they have been abroad.
B Crittenden
Yeah, something that goes hand in hand, which is a huge, huge question mark, for any organization that is just starting to do this as rights. I think that's the biggest hurdle that any organization is going to come across when trying to look at their digital distribution strategy. Like I said, it goes hand in hand with unions, and it goes hand in hand with cost as well. So, yeah, that's, that's something, I know that I actually had a chance to speak with a representative from marquee TV a couple years ago. And I asked her about how they approach dealing with rights. And she had basically said that it's really up to the organization to figure it out. They're, you know, they're not going to work with the organization necessarily to try and make any negotiations, she said that they do want to be, you know, have strong relationships with with unions, and at the time, she had said, with, we know, this is definitely going to be something that like, we're just going to want to make sure we have an understanding of what the environment is like, as the year goes on. And so they certainly were not ignoring all of those factors. But their policy was kind of like once the content gets to marquee TV, all the the rights are really the burden of the organization to have all their I's dotted and T's crossed.
Maraika Lumholdt
So there's a business -- help organizations.
B Crittenden
Oh, gosh, yeah.
Maraika Lumholdt
So going back to what we were speaking about in terms of engagement, and how digital distribution can be really interesting and exciting and supplementary to in person programming. Do you have any examples that stand out to you and in creative ways that organizations have leveraged streaming or other forms of digital distribution?
B Crittenden
Yeah, I think most of what my mind goes to is, well, I already mentioned Opera Philadelphia, they're definitely someone to check out because they just are so intentional about how their film works fit into their offerings. But other than that, my mind really goes to non-paid or supplemental video content, I think a huge area that has been impactful since organizations have shifted more to video has been in the areas of education. Again, some union contracts tend to grant a little bit more leniency with distribution of video when it is in the learning realm. And so some organizations have been able to have a little bit more freedom when it comes to lower costs of distributing educational content. And it's been really huge and increasing access to schools who might not be able to take a bus to come see the, you know, the kids education, concert or theater production, that kind of thing.
So that's, that's a huge area that I hope organizations continue to pursue. And one that I've seen that just kind of taking a look around certain performing arts organizations that were offering that like they were streaming concerts or theater productions, they're not doing that so much anymore, but they do have virtual learning content on their websites still, and are still leveraging that, which I think is great. Another one that comes to mind is like I've already mentioned this a couple times, but being able to offer something like showing a concert that maybe people were able to experience live, but having a version with a director offering or a musician or an actor providing commentary over that. And once again, this is something that's perfect for super fans, like members, subscribers donors, because those are the people who are going to be most excited about that kind of thing.
Maraika Lumholdt
Yeah, I love that. That reminds me of when we still watch DVDs I would always love going to the bonus features. Like directors commentary Yes. Yeah, whatever. Those are the best.
B Crittenden
Oh, we love a good behind the scenes. The bloopers-- Yeah, give me give me that. the special features.
Maraika Lumholdt
I missed that streaming doesn't do that anymore. I'll also shout out Jacob's Pillow, a dance festival in the Berkshires and Massachusetts who I think does a lot of what you just mentioned, they do really, they have some paid like transactional video on demand, you can pay a fee and get access to one single stream and their you know, beautifully filmed versions of in person programming they've had but they have a ton of free archival footage specific digital collections a lot of things that you wouldn't have access to going to their festival in person. And they put them together and very thoughtful, curated collections. They even have little quizzes to test your dance knowledge alongside them and share with people. And I think that kind of opened my eyes to some of the possibilities that you were just mentioning, so had to shout them out for everyone listening.
B Crittenden
Yeah, I also want to shout out now the shout outs, I want to shout out the London Symphony Orchestra because they do they have really great interactive video learning. And it's well I don't think it's exclusively for educational, like the educational environment. Because this was I was looking around at this, like in spring of 2020. They have this really good, I think they still have it. This I don't remember what it's called. But they have this cool sort of interactive platform where you can choose a piece, and they set up video cameras and, and filmed from different sections of the orchestra. So it helps, I think one of the main goals is to learn the different sections of the orchestra, but it offers different perspectives. And you can click around during the piece. And so you can see it in there like four different camera angles that you can have up at once. It's very fun.
Maraika Lumholdt
Sounds very cool. Okay, I will be looking at up after this. So streaming definitely continuing to change every day, especially in the performing arts, and everyone's figuring out how it might fit best into missions and strategies. So hopefully, we gave everyone some food for thought to ponder in terms of what to consider when branching into streaming or enhancing an existing program. So thank you B, for joining me today to talk through all of that.
B Crittenden
Yeah, thank you for having me. This was fun.
Maraika Lumholdt
This was fun. Thank you for listening to Tech in the Arts. Be on the lookout for new episodes coming to you very soon. If you found this episode, informative, educational or inspirational, be sure to send this to other arts aficionados in your life. You can let us know what you thought by visiting our website amp lab.org That's AMT-lab.org. Or you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can follow us on Instagram at Tech in the arts or on Facebook and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology lab. We'll see you for the next episode.