This is the first in a two-part conversation series with Andrew Plumley, the current Head of Equity and Impact for Arabella Advisors, and former Senior Director of Equity and Culture at the American Alliance of Museums, where he oversaw both AAM's internal DEAI work, as well as the Facing Change initiative, advancing museum board diversity and inclusion. In this episode, Victoria and Andrew discuss the biggest changes museums have made in response to the socio-political reckoning of 2020, how to increase diversity in museum board leadership, and how arts organizations take a more active role in overcoming the discomfort Americans are often conditioned to feel when discussing the issue of race.
Andrew Plumley 0:02
And you have to give yourself time. Time is a - this is generational work and so no one's going to be changing overnight. You know, structural racism didn't just happen. This is 450 years old. We're not going to solve every single problem tomorrow.
Victoria Sprowls 0:18
Welcome to an interview episode of Tech in the Arts, brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer, and this is the first part of my interview with Andrew Plumley, the former Senior Director of Equity and Culture at the American Alliance of Museums, and current Head of Equity and Impact for Arabella Advisors. Andrew, thank you for making the time in your very busy schedule to talk to us today.
Andrew Plumley 0:49
Thanks so much, Victoria. It's, it's really nice to be here.
Victoria Sprowls 0:51
What are the biggest changes you've seen museums make in response to the socio-political reckoning of 2020?
Andrew Plumley 0:57
Yeah, I think that's a good question. And I think there's been plenty of shifts since 2020. You know, when, you know, when George Floyd was murdered, there was obviously a lot going on in our country, a huge racial reckoning. And I think museums, were not left out of that conversation. And one of the things that I saw immediately, was that museums and particularly, particularly museum leaders knew that they had not done enough foundation work before 2020 to actually engage in the conversations that their staff, employees, and their communities were having. And so that was one of the first shifts that I saw from museums and museum leaders was figuring out okay, what are the sorts of trainings, what are the sorts of conversations that we need to be having to support the folks that are actually working in the building, and to support the conversations that the communities were having. Unfortunately, a little bit too late for that. You know, once once something happens in your community, or once something happens, that is obviously, you know, gripping the nation, trying to backtrack and find trainings that probably should have been happening, or having conversations or doing, doing the actual work around diversity, equity, accessibility, and inclusion, you know, you need to have that foundational knowledge to then actually incorporate that into conversations that you're having. But folks were calling - and I'm sure a bunch of DEAI, or diversity, equity, accessibility inclusion, practitioners had plenty of work around that time because folks were getting called all over the place. I think, although, you know, those calls seem to be coming a little bit late. The good thing about those shifts were that the work was starting to happen. And so it really was a catalyst for museums to understand for folks that were, you know, just starting their journey that this is really important. And, you know, unfortunately, things like George Floyd, are going to happen again, in different sorts of communities. And so museums were realizing that they really needed to start doing that work and start their journey.
Victoria Sprowls 3:20
So now they've kind of made the changes that need to be made in order to enact change, even in the first place.
Andrew Plumley 3:26
Yeah, I think they realized that museums aren't left out of those kind of, you know, as you know, as you put it, the socio-political reckonings that were happening - museums weren't left out of that conversation. And many museums were actually getting called out for not actually being ready to handle those, handle those conversations. And a part of that was that they were putting out public statements around, you know, them, they're kind of in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement. And at the same, at the same time, not even supporting many of the Black employees that the Black and Brown employees that they had in, in their museums. And so there was a real dissonance in those public statements that happened. And so they knew they needed to do more work. They're starting to do that work now. They're hiring folks that are holding that transformational work of of change of organizational culture. And I think another big important shift was that museums, externally, the communities that they're a part of raise the standards and their expectations of what museums need to be. So now the level of accountability for museums is at a much higher standard. And I think that's actually needed - external accountability is a huge piece of DEAI work and without communities holding folks accountable publicly, and those museums stating publicly what they're going to do. I think that was a huge shift for the field that I hope continues.
Victoria Sprowls 4:56
Yeah, so speaking of, you know, diversity within museums and being held accountable. “The 2017 Museum Board Leadership report revealed that 46 percent of museums boards are 100 percent White and 93 percent of art museum directors are White.” So can you explain how you see a change at the board level creating change at the staff level? Or vice versa? If it's happening the other way.
Andrew Plumley 5:22
Yeah, I think it can happen both ways. I think that those numbers are profound, and frankly shameful. But I think it's also kind of indicative of where the museum field is, right now, in terms of specifically racial and ethnic diversity, but all sorts of diversity.
Victoria Sprowls 5:43
It is shameful, it's crazy to think about because diversity is not like a new topic. And so to - yeah, to find that 46% are 100% White is just, yeah, crazy.
Andrew Plumley 5:55
It's crazy. And I think it's, it's, um, you know, it's how museums were built. And so that's still, you know, a part of that legacy of many, many of the museums that are across the country. Now, not all, not all, because some museums, you know, that Black and Brown-lead, are often created of by and for the community, but but for the most part, museums are majority White and absolutely White-lead. I think one of the important parts about diversifying museum boards specifically, is not just because we need to get those numbers to different numbers, but it actually does something to the museum: it allows there to be an expansion of the stories and narratives that we tell. And really, museums are the holders of culture and stories and narrative. And with a more diversified board, particularly racially, racially and ethnically, we're going to get an expansion of what stories we can tell from what perspectives we can tell them. And I also think that if we start to diversify boards specifically, you know, often boards recruit from the same, you know, places, spaces, friend groups, colleague groups, that board board members know. And as you diversify that, the board will become more diverse, and because it's not going to be such a homogenous group. And so I think that will also lend itself to different sorts of leaders moving into museum leadership roles, hiring more diverse, racially and ethnically diverse staff overtime. So I think, you know, as the board gets more diverse, so does the staff. It can happen vice versa and often does, because it's easier, often to hire diverse kind of staff level, racially and ethnically diverse staff. And over time, that kind of builds up into senior leadership positions. And then because those museums are maybe more majority Black and Brown, it makes sense for those board members to actually identify with the stories that they're telling, and the museum leadership as well. So it can happen both ways but I do think there is there's a huge push, there needs to be a huge push for diversifying, particularly museum board leadership.
Victoria Sprowls 8:22
Right, particularly, because, you know, starting at the staff level, and moving your way into an executive position can take years and years.
Andrew Plumley 8:30
Years. And often -
Victoria Sprowls 8:33
Like a lifetime.
Andrew Plumley 8:32
And often, those folks in leadership positions are there for 15, 20, 30 years. So there needs to be, you know, something happening at that level, you're - that's absolutely right.
Victoria Sprowls 8:36
As museums make an active effort to diversify, what would you say to White colleagues who want to offer support to staff members of color, about racial injustices after they occur in their community, but don't know exactly how to proceed?
Andrew Plumley 9:01
Yeah, I mean, that's a really important question and a tough one to answer, particularly because I'm not White. But I would say this, the first thing that any any person has to do is educate themselves. And I think making sure that your education is rooted in authentic behavior, I think is huge. So you know, if if I'm a, if I'm a White colleague, and I'm, and I don't have an authentic relationship, built on trust and vulnerability with any person of color within, you know, my museum or workplace, it's probably not a smart idea to just go and have a conversation with that person about what's happening in the world. There's a lot of weight and trauma and harm that's happened to these to folks of color. Already. Having to support a conversation with a White colleague who has probably never talked to me before or we're not close with, isn't a great place to start. I would start with advocation and talking to your White coworkers about the things that are going on. And trying to figure out ways to give more space for folks of color to not have to hold - not feel the responsibility to hold those sorts of conversations in the museum. I think that's a huge thing that every White person can do to be a better ally right now.
Victoria Sprowls 10:25
And this is, you know, slightly a different context as this is an interview, but maybe, you know, as a White person, not putting it on a person of color to explain to me what I need to do.
Andrew Plumley 10:34
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's, I think it's a really good point. And I often...
Victoria Sprowls 10:39
Something I realized as soon as you started talking.
Andrew Plumley 10:43
I think it's a - I think it's an interesting point because I don't, I sometimes say this, and I don't mean to mean it to be flippant. But Google is an unbelievable tool. When you when - there is no question that hasn't been asked on Google, and particularly for White folks, Google things. Because it's, things pop up, and you can read and read and read. And now obviously, intellectualizing this work, and just thinking about it from that intellectual space, isn't sustainable, because you have to bring this work from your head to your heart. But I think that is a really great place to start. So Google the things that you don't know.
Victoria Sprowls 11:21
Yeah, so taking a slightly different perspective on somewhat the same topic, how can arts organizations take a role in our society, overcoming the discomfort we are often conditioned to feel, especially in America, when discussing the issue of race, and particularly, you know, in museums that race can and should be a primary focus of a lot of exhibitions?
Andrew Plumley 11:46
Yeah, yeah, I think that's, I think that's, I think you've kind of said, the biggest part. In the American context, the race is the biggest driver of disparity often in conversation. And so not focusing on it is really not a great strategy moving forward, just in terms of sustainability in terms of audience.
Victoria Sprowls 12:05
And the relevancy of your museum.
Andrew Plumley 12:07
Exactly. You cannot, you cannot just put this over here in one kind of one bucket of work and say, we'll touch on, we'll touch on this once a year. It is all the time.
Victoria Sprowls 12:16
Which sometimes is, yeah, what I find at museums, especially smaller local museums, is that a lot of the museum has, you know, different exhibitions that are focused on White history. And then there's like one corner somewhere that talks about, you know, another people's history when it could be all together. It's the same history. Yeah.
Andrew Plumley 12:37
I think that to me, that's it. And this goes, this ties to something that I found really interesting, right? When I came into the museum field, around just just our, just our nomenclature and lexicon about museums. We talk about Black and Brown, and other kinds of identity-specific museums as culturally specific. And when I, when I heard that for the first time, like, what does that actually mean? And I think the whole point is that White, in the museum space in the museum field, we don't see that as a particular culture, but everything else is.
Victoria Sprowls 13:17
That's just the "base," kind of.
Andrew Plumley 13:18
Right. That is the standard. And so even the way that we name museums as culturally specific or not, I think does huge damage to really how race is constructed, and how White-dominant norms and race plays out in many different cultures and many different spaces. And so White is a culture, particularly in the American context, as as is everything else. And so, you know, art museums that focus on White artists is a culturally specific museum as well. But I think one thing, you know, back to the, to the original question, I think we have to understand that we're, many of us are socialized not to talk about race in public, particularly in cross - in multiracial spaces. But one of the things that we have to do if we're going to get better at this is to have spaces where those conversations actually take place in safe and brave spaces. And I think museums and cultural institutions are the perfect places for that, mostly because of the stories and narratives that they are able to tell. But also because of oftentimes, those museums are in community. And once you're in community, you - to me, we all have an obligation, and a responsibility to hold space, to build relationships - again, built on trust and vulnerability and authenticity - to actually build a better, stronger ecosystem for our community. And I think museums and cultural institutions are those places. So I think it's it's imperative that we do that. But I think in order to do that, again, museums have to have the foundational knowledge of concepts of diversity, equity, accessibility, and inclusion. So that when we do bring people together, we're actually having that in a respectful, respectful way, or having those conversations in a respectful way, rather than causing more harm.
Victoria Sprowls 15:17
I attended a lecture of yours the other day, where you said that taking risks and anticipating that you will make mistakes is a crucial aspect of DEAI work. What would you say to organizations that are afraid of doing anything for fear of making a mistake or facing backlash? But also, I do want to keep in mind what you just brought up: the fact that you know, not doing anything and having a White-centric museum is is a choice and not just not just the standard. Yeah, I think that was a really good point.
Andrew Plumley 15:48
Yeah, it absolutely is a choice. And I think when I understand how scary it can be to take risks around this work, particularly given 2020, and what's happened and kind of our general move towards cancel-culture right now.
Victoria Sprowls 16:14
I mean, I haven't personally heard of any museums being canceled. But that might be because I'm not in the space as much. Yeah.
Andrew Plumley 16:22
Yeah and I don't think I think for many of the museums that did get some backlash for their public comments. Those museums are too big to fail, quote, unquote, like they’re too big to - can't be fully canceled. But I do think that particular leaders, individuals within institutions, feel the pressure, and, and, frankly, are are canceled. And to me, I understand why there's fear there. Most of the time, and we could talk about cancel culture for, for a long time. I think it's a really useful tool in specific instances, to really have voices of the unheard be heard. And I think it's, I think it needs to be a part of any activist or any movement’s toolbox. But from the other perspective, from the other side, for museum leaders, folks have to understand that not doing anything is riskier than doing - than trying something and doing trainings and having conversations, and I think people want to change without changing anything. And you have to try to -
Victoria Sprowls 17:32
Yes, they do.
Andrew Plumley 17:33
Yeah, you have to do different things, to to achieve different results. And so for me, it's not really about making all of these drastic changes all at once. I don't think museums and just general organizations are really good at making multiple changes, drastic ones, all at once. Try one thing, and see how that goes, and then iterate on that. I think that's really, that's really what I want people to do is try doing a thing, one thing, and then keep them keep iterating. That is going to build up some resiliency, for messing up having to figure out exactly what went wrong, being accountable to that mistake, and then moving forward. That is what actually building authentic trust looks like in action, trying something messing up being accountable for that thing, understanding that and naming that, and moving forward. I think that's what I would want more museums to do, and more leaders to do. And it doesn't have to be this vast change. It can be a really little, you know, really, really little thing to try at first.
Victoria Sprowls 18:44
I think that definitely makes sense. Yeah. And it seems less daunting to take one small step, than a whole overturning of everything you've ever done all at once. Yeah.
Andrew Plumley 18:55
Right. There has to be some grace for, for for change. Now, if you're not doing anything, and you just want everything to be better. I don't think there needs to be any grace for you. But if you're actually putting forth effort to change the things that you can control, in a timeline that actually makes sense for change in behavior to change in practice and policy. I think I think there's there should be room for that for that level of growth.
Victoria Sprowls 19:22
So with that, I don't know if you've encountered this mentality or if you have advice for people who do but how do you counteract a "this is the way we do things because this is the way that things have always been done" mentality in trying to create more of a structural or organizational change. I know that we were just talking about smaller changes, but I think you were saying even at the beginning of the podcast that the hope is to have larger structural change.
Andrew Plumley 19:51
Yeah, absolutely. It's such an interesting question because a lot of the things that I work with, in museums, is actually deconstructing "the way we do things around here."
Victoria Sprowls 20:04
Yeah.
Andrew Plumley 20:05
That is ultimately what organizational culture is. It's often all of the unseen roles.
Victoria Sprowls 20:11
I think that's even across the board, like not only in museums but in every, in every organization, bureaucracy everywhere. Yeah.
Andrew Plumley 20:18
It's absolutely true. And I think that's also where I see this work isn't... Museums aren't special in their uniqueness around this work. This work is being done across nonprofits, private sector, government, everywhere, and there are some foundational things that everybody needs to do. Now museums are particularly special in the sense that they're often holders of objects, or they're, they're able to kind of hold culture in a different sort of way. But in terms of how organizational culture actually exists, often, it's the unseen things that you don't even know about until you get your hand slapped. And you know, oh, that was against that particular rule that-
Victoria Sprowls 21:01
Some code.
Andrew Plumley 21:01
- wasn't, wasn't around. So I think just naming that organizational culture exists within within museums is is a huge piece. And if I ever hear "that's the way that we do things around here," I know that it actually can be deconstructed and made any other way. And it's often around our beliefs, our behaviors, and then our actual process to get to specific outcomes. Oftentimes, it's one or two people that hold that - kind of are holding tight to that, to that culture, that we really have to deconstruct, but without deconstructing that, unlearning some of the things, and providing a vision and examples of a new way to do it, folks are really going to have a hard time they're gonna be challenged by trying something that they don't know is going to work. And so it's really, again, practicing doing a thing that's going to be the most helpful. Over time, you're going to, you're going to say, Okay, we're gonna try - we're gonna try this new process of hiring folks. It's blind hiring, where we redact their names and some of the specific, you know, some of the specific identifying factors for this person. We might try that once. And then in two and a half years from now, we're going to try to revamp the whole hiring process altogether. So it's really starting from smaller things that are doable to larger to larger projects, and you have to give yourself time. Time is a - this is generational work, and so no one's going to be changing overnight. You know, structural racism didn't just happen. This is 450 years old. We're not going to solve every single problem tomorrow.
Victoria Sprowls 22:45
That was part one of my interview with Andrew Plumley. Tune in next week for part two. If you found this episode, informative, educational, or inspirational send this to another arts aficionado and your life. You can let us know what you thought by visiting our website: amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @TechintheArts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. We'll see you for the next episode.