In today’s Let’s Talk, Victoria discusses some possible causes for the declining viewership of the Super Bowl, despite Sunday Night Football viewership remaining steady, before being joined by Shambhavi Mishra to discuss the future of tech in music composition. Topics touch on the innovation inherent in being able to create music from one’s bedroom, how composers are using TikTok to gain a following and respect in the music industry, and what the future of AI looks like in musical composition.
Victoria Sprowls 0:02
Welcome to an interview episode of Tech in the Arts, brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer. Before we dive into today's interview, I wanted to lay out some interesting facts about Super Bowl viewership you can bring up at any parties you attend this weekend. According to an article from CNBC, the SuperBowl ratings for viewers aged 18 to 49 have decreased every year for the past 10 years - from 52.2 million in 2011 to 34.3 million in 2021. Some of this can be attributed to the rise of streaming, but not a large portion, as only 5.7 million people streamed the Super Bowl in 2021. The decline could be contributed to the greater decline in live event viewership. The Grammy, Emmy, and Academy Awards ceremonies have all experienced a precipitous decline over the past decade. However, CNBC points out that Sunday Night Football viewership in the 18 to 49-year-old age group has remained relatively steady around 8 million. Given this interest in Sunday Night Football, the issue with SuperBowl viewership seems not to be a general lack of interest in live sports - but less interest from casual viewers tuning in. The rise of so many different forms of entertainment (streaming services, video games, TikTok) means that the SuperBowl can’t just rely on the fact that people with nothing to do on a Sunday afternoon will watch. There are myriad ways to entertain oneself on any given Sunday afternoon - and in order to gain viewers, attention must be pulled from other forms of entertainment. Not only that, but the rise of short-form entertainment has decreased younger Americans’ attention spans - and Football is a long game. Pile-on to that the controversies surrounding players’ concussions and alleged blackballing of Colin Kaepernick, and the NFL itself begins to seem as if it’s not keeping up with the times. While all of this can, and should, be taken into account when thinking about declining ratings, the SuperBowl gives some hope to live televised sports. It is, after all, “...still -- by far -- the most-watched event of the year (including among the 18-to-49 demographic).” However, if it hopes to remain the most-watched event of the year, it’s obvious some changes need to be made. I like watching sports in person - baseball, basketball, volleyball even, but I don’t follow them on TV. In fact, I only ever watch live sports at my Grandpa’s house, because he still has cable and religiously watches tennis. Major sports leagues need to figure out a way to make streaming sports content more accessible and less confusing. NBC’s low viewership numbers of the Summer Olympics last year prove that people are not willing to jump through hoops to figure out how to watch televised sports. Of course, making it easier to watch on streaming is a no-brainer, but adding fresh personalities to the sports reporters running commentary during the games would be a huge improvement. I’ve never been able to get up to speed with football. It seems like the barrier to entry is so much higher - too many rules, too many different ways to score points, too many types of points, and I never seem to know where the ball is. Having someone hilariously and succinctly explain what is going on would make all the time outs and downtime during the game more enjoyable and that might make me want to tune in. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the SuperBowl - whether you’ll be watching this year, what you might be doing instead, or what changes you might suggest to ensure the longevity of this historic American pastime. For a more in depth analysis, be sure to check out our article on amt-lab.org.
And now for an interview with Shambhavi Mishra about the future of tech in music. She was recently a recipient of the 2021 Hedy Lamarr Achievement Award for Emerging Leaders in Entertainment Technology and is working on the last year of her BHA in Humanities Analytics & Music Composition while completing the first year of a Masters in Entertainment Industry Management. Very impressive! Shambhavi I'm so happy you could join us today to speak about the advancements in music composition and the future of technology in music. Thank you for being here.
Shambhavi Mishra 3:53
So excited.
Victoria Sprowls 3:54
In preparing for our interview, I came across an article from 1988 that stated, “Any musician who does not know the meaning of words like equalization, digital editing, sampling, reverberation, mixing, etc., is out of touch with his/her art and is, in a real sense, illiterate.” So today these words are certainly more commonplace. And while it seems like technology has been speculated as the future of music composition for over 30 years, we've definitely had a lot of fast technological advancements in the past 10 to 15 years. What are the ways in which you see technology changing or advancing classical music composition?
Shambhavi Mishra 4:32
So in my experience, I have seen a lot of integration with live electronic processing in the classical music composition sphere both as live, on concert events, and now even virtual events thanks to the newer ways to do collaborations online. So when I look at how technology is advancing the classical music composition sphere, I am really recognizing that there are newer sounds and textures that are just basically adding to the pre existing language that we're already accustomed to. With other genres, though, so like jazz and rock and EDM, I mean, the list goes on, they've been very used to having technology and electronics, whether it be pedals for an electric guitar, or sampling with like different Hip-Hop jazz scores. That is like very commonplace. So when we look at the classical or like more traditional onstage, with a full orchestra, type of setting, I am very excited to see how orchestras are incorporating different electronics. So one example is like live processing, where a soloist might be miked up, and then they're controlling effects using a pedal and the orchestra is with them.
Victoria Sprowls 5:53
Is that a case where an artist is coming up with composition in the moment? Or is it more that they have practiced this, and they're, and they are coming up with the sounds in the moment?
Shambhavi Mishra 6:05
So it goes both ways, because there are composers in the 21st century, that have come up with their own way and language of physically writing on a page of what they want the performer to do. So I have personally been like one of those composers, I've learned how to put electronic instructions so that say a musician does not know how to use electronics or a foot pedal in real time, but by reading the instructions, they can figure it out. So it will be like more, they're reading the score as is, and they just have like an extra thing to do. And there are musicians that are very good at improvising on top of that. So there are sometimes the instruction might just be okay, you're going to have reverb on your instrument for two minutes. And you have a selection of four notes to choose from. And you have to fill up that two minutes. And this is the texture that you want. So it's so much more open and free, that it's up for the musician to like really use their improvisational skills and then interpret whatever the composer was expressing in that moment. So it's a mix of both.
Victoria Sprowls 7:13
Yeah, it reminds me of modern dance kind of in the sense that you you have some choreography, but it allows for a kind of improv in the moment as well.
Shambhavi Mishra 7:24
Exactly. And I mean, they're also - my, one of my favorite albums that I have like actually purchased as a record as well is called Melkweg. And it's by this composer, Jameszoo, very interesting name. And it was run by the Metropole Orkest. And honestly, it's like one of the coolest albums I've heard because he's found a way to like, make the synthesizer part of the orchestra so that it doesn't sound like a cheesy kind of, like 80s or 90s, like organ, kind of sound.
Victoria Sprowls 8:05
80s synth, yeah.
Shambhavi Mishra 8:07
It has like this kind of cool, like layer that you're adding that just makes it like, Oh, I'm more interested in seeing how traditional instruments that do not have electronic components, kind of combined with ones that do require it. And I think like that mix, and seeing that on stage is like really, really, really cool. And even more so when there are opportunities for performers to improvise on top of that.
Victoria Sprowls 8:33
So you brought up the fact that musicians can create new sounds that, you know, classical music has not been able to produce in the past.
Shambhavi Mishra 8:44
Yeah, I think if anything, I consider it as an extra layer that you're adding. So it's not that necessarily you're ignoring what classical music is, or I mean, even the term classical music is very subjective. It can mean the time period, but it can also mean the style. So it's like, you know, there's it depends on who you're asking. But in terms of like the two combining together, I honestly think it's just another layer that you can add to enhance the experience. Or you can do the complete opposite where the electronics is the focus, and then you have a very minimal classical sound or quality in the background.
Victoria Sprowls 9:26
So do you think that technology can make for a more immersive and reactive classical music performance? I know that you've touched on, a little, the fact that, you know, we don't know exactly how we're defining classical music, but and you've touched on, you know, ways in which you can but are there any other ways that it could be just more immersive and reactive?
Shambhavi Mishra 9:43
Definitely. So I haven't seen this in person yet. But there are like few different ways that current like film composers or anyone that needs to understand how to have a very strong classical music composition background and know like that language. And then they use that language and intertwine it with like electronics and to create a more immersive experience. One thing I love listening to is spatialized audio performances. So that's essentially when the composer, or the producer, or the audio engineer really made sure that certain sounds are coming from certain directions. So when you're wearing headphones, for example, if the flute is intended to come out of the left headphone, it's going to come out from there while it might be communicating with the singer that's supposed to sound like they're really far away, coming back from your right ear. So that kind of extra effort, I would say, and like really paying attention to what it sounds like when the person who's wearing headphones - doesn't matter if they are seeing the orchestra in front of them or not. But they're creating this 360 environment around them. So it doesn't become like a two dimensional like airwaves are going into your years. And that's kind of it, they are expanding to the point where you do feel immersed as if you were standing in the middle of an orchestra, or you were standing at a concert and the performer was right in front of you. And the drums were coming from one side and some other instrument was coming from a different angle.
Victoria Sprowls 11:26
It's more of a whole body experience.
Shambhavi Mishra 11:28
Exactly. So that is like one way that I know that people are moving towards making more immersive experiences. And because of like AR and VR, that are also being like intertwined, especially in the gaming industry with music composition, there is like a really good example of where spatialized audio is excelling. And I really, really am hoping to see more like pop artists, or R&B artists, or like in Spotify for it to really be or any streaming app for music to have other artists that are not necessarily in the gaming industry or in film scoring industry to incorporate that as well.
Victoria Sprowls 12:13
That's great. Yeah, I recently played around with my brother-in-law's Oculus over, over the break. And yeah, I noticed that, depending on where you are in the storyline, and as you move and shift through the narrative, the aural landscape shifts with you. Yeah, so it was really interesting.
Shambhavi Mishra 12:34
Yeah.
Victoria Sprowls 12:35
In an article from Soundcharts denoting music trends for 2020. It's noted that the further democratization of music creation through high quality production software, made cheaply available on mobile or in-browser devices, and which often have some type of AI-assistance makes it easy to create something that sounds good. While it's now possible to create studio level sound quality from one's bedroom, do you think this has diluted the the overall quality of music being composed? Or do you see it leading to greater innovation in composition as the mere ability to compose moves beyond the typical gatekeepers to reach the masses, something else entirely?
Shambhavi Mishra 13:16
I am an optimist. So when I see people saying that they're are more high quality production softwares being available for more people, that to me just means that more people are allowed to share their voice and share their space and be part of like this amazing, amazing like experience in language. And also because music is very subjective. So someone will like your sound and your sound doesn't have to be for everyone. And because more artists and new artists are having that space and that ability to play around and create, I think there will be an audience for them, it's not necessarily going to dilute the quality it's just going to make it more niche for certain audiences to really find what they like and what makes something even more unique and different to what they're looking for in that audio experience. And it also allows like, for more creators to be exposed to that musical environment. You don't have to know the theory or the technical abilities behind audio softwares or you don't need to know how to play instruments even or how to read music, as long as you understand how to use whatever tool you're using, and create beats or create sounds or create music that like you enjoy. And personally for me, I also have seen like, yes, I do have a background with playing instruments, and I grew up doing a lot of classical piano and then jazz piano and so I have that background with the traditional music conservatory kind of education. However, my music composition skills have veered significantly over to the kind of experimental realm where traditional notation is not very helpful. So you have to use technology use different softwares that are going to get the sound that you're looking for. So having artists like, have the ability to use whatever they can, and basically not gatekeep others is something that I think is amazing. And then I mean, also something entirely different, would also be allowing new artists to really take control of the music business industry, because now you can self publish, you can copyright it doesn't have to have a formal path where, you need an agent, or you need a producer or you need a sound mixer. The fact that you can do everything by yourself in your bedroom, and still come up with a product that- or creativity, material that you really enjoy, and you want to share. It just allows audiences to be more excited about it, and for the artists themselves to like, feel proud of the work that they did, and not necessarily be bogged down by all the extra nitty gritty details of the business as well as like, having to know the technical side of the music.
Victoria Sprowls 16:18
So it allows for artists to be more true to themselves in their own art and and have to not necessarily pander but but pander less to, to the masses, because they are now allowed to create such such niche art for niche audiences. And maybe in that way they can create genius in their in their own little niche realm. Yeah, I like that. It's also it's very interesting to think about the fact that people can become highly praised musicians and artists in the in the musical sphere nowadays, without knowing how to play an instrument or knowing how to read music. That's fascinating to think about. Yeah.
Shambhavi Mishra 16:56
Yeah. If I had, like, the, the professors and the teachers that I've grown up with are very like, "Yes, you need to know how to read music," but I am seeing the change right now. Like even in CMU, there are majors that are now offered that were not originally offered, or there are students that have like a computer science background, that are really good at electrical engineering, and just understanding how the physics of sound works, that they can come into a music class and be really, really good at creating something from scratch, because they know how to use the electronic tools or the audio softwares. And because it's more intuitive to them. So it I think that's just really, really cool that you can essentially create your own genre, and you don't have to really worry about the traditional rules that you have to follow and just really have fun with the art medium a lot more.
Victoria Sprowls 17:49
Exactly. Yeah. Are you seeing interest grow in composers using TikTok as a way to gain a following and gain traction? And how do you see that increasing artists' agency or making the music industry more democratic?
Shambhavi Mishra 17:59
Oh, yeah, I'm sure it's very much right around the corner. If it's specifically for TikTok, there are artists that have become so popular just because of that medium and might have not gained that traction without that sphere. So one example I think is very inspiring is the Unofficial Bridgerton Musical by Barlow and Bear.
Victoria Sprowls 18:24
I just heard about this over the weekend. Yeah.
Shambhavi Mishra 18:35
And it's amazing because it's just two very talented composers that are also female, which is like, you know, not -
Victoria Sprowls 18:43
Amazing.
Shambhavi Mishra 18:43
- a majority so I saw that story like happen and I remember it them posting like videos on TikTok, like these different clips, and then all of a sudden, you're in a community that's going to support you, regardless of like, how small or how long or what your technical background is, and they did a really good job in just putting themselves out there publicly and using that platform to get so much success and like be nominated for a Grammy which is such a cool story that I'm crossing my fingers that they go all the way with that. And I mean, and on another side I think another cool example is Doja Cat. I feel like every single one of her songs is famous because it became so famous on TikTok. And the cool thing about that is that you're combining different mediums too. It's not just the music anymore, it's a little bit of the video production. It's also potentially a dance that becomes popular with it or a meme that gets attached somehow. So I think TikTok itself with composers or artists in general that have musical interest and musical backgrounds are not just musicians in that sphere anymore. They are essentially like mini content creators and they have to put a lot of different hats on to produce like either that 30 second sound bit to maybe even a full two minute song. And it's really inspiring. And it kind of makes me feel like I should also add to that train and become more fluent.
Victoria Sprowls 20:16
It does make you feel like, you know, if you're passionate about something, and you, you know, have have access to these online composing applications, you know, you really can go all the way now.
Shambhavi Mishra 20:29
Absolutely. I think another thing with like, NFTs specifically, I've experienced it more and say like the Twitch atmosphere. So I personally have done two Twitch concerts in which we had everyone, every instrumentalists was virtual, and it was through an academic ensemble at CMU called Exploded Ensemble, we do a lot of experimental stuff. And when the pandemic happened, this class was still happening and we were trying to figure out how to still have a concert while all of us are in different states of the U.S., or potentially even the world - there were a few international students - and still be able to make music at the same time and live stream it.
Victoria Sprowls 21:14
I'm surprised to hear about this because it from what I know, it seems like you know, singing and playing instruments over, you know, Zoom or online together. It seems like impossible, almost.
Shambhavi Mishra 21:26
So with a something that is very structured in either time or in rhythm is hard, because there's lag, it's inevitable. And it's very hard to coordinate. But with something that's a little bit more loose and experimental, it's definitely possible to create a narrative or a storyline. So we had a lot of different people pitch different types of pieces that were accommodating for the lag time. So if someone came in on an entrance, then it didn't necessarily matter if they were late or on time, because we were in a section that was relatively together in that certain space and time. So with Twitch, it was really cool. Because there were a lot of components where audiences could actually interact with us. There was one concert, I remember where the student created like this piano. And that was like a toy piano. They deconstructed it in a way where if the audience like typed a certain letter in the chat, so F in the chat, the piano would play F in real time.
Victoria Sprowls 22:50
Oh, wow.
Shambhavi Mishra 22:51
So that was like completely different. And you couldn't you wouldn't be able to think about that idea. If you were in person in a normal concert kind of venue.
Victoria Sprowls 22:59
In real life, yeah.
Shambhavi Mishra 23:00
And then as soon as we went online and like are opening up to different kind of ways to present live music, that was like a really cool opportunity for audiences to become more interactive.
Victoria Sprowls 23:12
I know that AI can be helpful in composing and producing music. But are you at all concerned about the future of AI tech in music composition? AIVA Technologies have, “created an AI called AIVA (artificial intelligence virtual artist) and taught it how to compose classical music - an emotional art, which is usually considered to be uniquely a human quality.” Do you think there'll be a time in the future when AI replaces human composition or human performance in the world of music? And I know that this question is not just specific to music composition, kind of, we all have to think about it every day, but if you have any opinions.
Shambhavi Mishra 23:48
So I don't think that AI will completely replace any aspect of the creative part of it. I do think, though, that there will be collaboration in using AI as a tool for assistance. So, for example, in music composition, there are AIs that have like predicted the ends of pieces for composers who wrote something and then they never finished it. But an AI went and tried to, like, replicate this in the style of a famous composer. So like, replicating the style of Mozart, replicating the style of Bach. Just because we have such a huge repository, AI can like learn from that and be able to like essentially mimic that style. So I've definitely seen that as a possibility. I've also seen in certain genres that it's a little bit easier for AI to learn. So minimalism, for example, because it's very pattern focused. Even music that is more chordal or choir based, that has certain rules for AI to follow. There are instances where I think yes, AI can potentially create and compose music on its own. However, the ones that are more complex, more contemporary, that have extended techniques and electronics, that are not conventional. That's where I feel like AI might be a tool, but not necessarily replace it. And the same goes with the performance aspect. I have seen on CMU's campus where there has been a robot that can play the bagpipes - just super cool. But in terms of fully autom- having a fully like robot orchestra, for example, there are smaller versions of it. But I really think that like at the end of the day, musics not perfect, it's not meant to be perfect, and having that element of going on stage and being a human and performing, say, a piece that has been performed a million times to a piece that's never been performed before. There's like that adrenaline rush not for just the performer, but also for the audience. You're going to get something new every time you hear it. And that's part of why you go to a concert, you're not gonna hear the same version of someone singing a piece from your headphones than you are from them being performing live in New York City to them performing live in a different place. So that I think that AI will definitely be a tool and assist us throughout the creation process, and even possibly there as a tool for performance, but never fully replace it.
Victoria Sprowls 26:37
I think AI, AI performers is kind of it's a novelty. But yeah, I can't imagine myself paying big money to go to a concert to see, like a robot perform at this point, at least in my life. So my last question to end on a bit of a high note, if you had to choose one thing about the future of technology in music that you're most excited about? What is it?
Shambhavi Mishra 26:59
Okay, so I am really excited about how current artists are integrating their audio visual components within the music that they're already creating. So one environment that I thought or example that I thought was really, really cool is that Doja Cat came out with her "Women" music video. But she also came out with a version where you could code music to the video. So the audience was actually like interacting with the music video in a more personal way where they could choose her UI design while the video was being played and while the music was happening. So what that kind of shows is that artists are being a little bit more aware of how to use audience interaction within a medium that already exists and audiences are engaged and interested in, but also a component that kind of has education as part of the experience. So music and tech and educational environments is what I'm really, really excited for. Whether it be learning how to code, but through audio visual programs, so that it's more of a visual experience. And you're not overwhelmed by something that is new to you. But you can use a tool that you're familiar with, and you've been exposed to in a longer time to kind of rewire how you're going to learn a certain skill.
Victoria Sprowls 28:32
That's so fascinating. What you're saying. It reminds me of like when I was in third grade, and we used to go and play like computer games, basically, that taught us how to type on the computer before that was just a commonplace thing. Yeah, so that's incredible.
Shambhavi Mishra 28:46
Yeah, so definitely, I'm excited to see how like music is going to be used in more educational environments to kind of change the way that we're using music not just as a human experience or a talent or a skill, but use it as a tool to better educate or better learn different mediums or different disciplines that we're already used to learning in a certain way. Something like hearing data, for example, instead of just seeing data is like something I'm like
Victoria Sprowls 29:17
You're blowing my mind
Shambhavi Mishra 29:18
- is something that I hope becomes more popular. It's not known yet, but like the possibilities of seeing the integration of disciplines within the arts and something that is not traditionally known as artistic or artful is what I'm really really excited for.
Victoria Sprowls 29:37
Well, I'm excited. And listeners if you missed our last episode, we have two guests hosts who reviewed some VR applications including Soundscape VR, which is similar to what you're saying about immersing yourself in the soundscape of not only music, but music with visuals as well. So if you missed that, be sure to check it out. And Shambhavi It was great to talk to you about the possibilities for the future of music education in VR and more generally the future of tech in music. Thank you for being here and thank you for sharing your expertise with us.
Shambhavi Mishra 30:06
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Sprowls 30:09
Thanks for listening to the Tech in the Arts podcast. Let us know what you thought by visiting our website: amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @Tech in the Arts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. Thanks again for tuning in. If you found this episode, informative, educational, or inspirational - then send this to another arts aficionado in your life. We'll see you for the next episode.