Victoria is joined by AMT Lab contributors, Ethan Jones and Elizabeth Forrey, to discuss best practices around data collection. Topics touch on streaming services data transparency (or lack thereof), how big tech companies use your data, how arts organizations can use data collection to their advantage, and whether or not it's actually prudent to do so.
Victoria Sprowls 0:02
Welcome to the Let's Talk series of Tech in the Arts, the podcast for the Arts Management and Technology Lab. Our goal is to exchange ideas, shine a spotlight on pressing issues and stay on top of the trends. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer, and today I have with me Liz Forrey and Ethan Jones, contributors to the Arts Management and Technology Lab, to talk about data collection, how arts organizations can use that data to their advantage, and whether or not it's actually prudent to do so. Thank you both for being here.
Ethan Jones 0:30
We're happy to be here.
Elizabeth Forrey 0:32
Yeah. Thanks for having us, Victoria.
Victoria Sprowls 0:33
So Ethan, let's start with you - tell us the basics about how streaming services track our data and what they do with it.
Ethan Jones 0:40
Yeah, so I'm super interested in understanding film and television streaming services and how they work because they really have come to the forefront of a lot of our data usage and of consumers minds, especially in the past couple years since the pandemic. So when I'm talking about streaming services, I'm talking about your Netflix, your Hulu, your Amazon Prime Video, which have all been around the block for the past five years or so. But the newer players to the game like HBO Max, Disney+, Peacock, Apple TV+, and Paramount+.
Victoria Sprowls 1:11
I feel like every time I turn my, my TV on, there's a new streaming service.
Ethan Jones 1:15
There's a new one every single day, it's ridiculous. We're getting like CNN+ now.
Victoria Sprowls 1:19
That's crazy. I haven't I haven't even heard of that one, yeah.
Ethan Jones 1:21
It's so interesting because we didn't have any of these, like three years ago. And so there's this new, totally different culture that the entertainment industry is trying to get its grip on and how to grapple with all these different choices. And consumers are trying to understand. They don't want to subscribe to nine different streaming services all for $11.99.
Victoria Sprowls 1:38
Yeah, I often ask my friends, like a big, a big like dinner question is if you could only have like three streaming services, what would it be?
Ethan Jones 1:45
Yeah. And so these streaming services are now understanding, hey, we really need to make sure we get all these consumers’ attention and make sure that we are one of the two to three streaming services that they choose to subscribe to first. And so... Using the data to do that? Using data, absolutely. And so when they're gathering all sorts of data, it's stuff like what demographics are watching certain TV shows, what retention rates are like for viewers, what kind of genres certain users are watching more frequently, and many other statistics that each streamer tracks and then analyzes so they can create the most personable experience. And they also take from other streaming services, they really are just, it's like, a lot of pundits have called it "The Streaming Wars" to make sure that they really are on top, to be at the consumers’ forefront of their mind.
Victoria Sprowls 2:32
So that's basically what they're using all their data for?
Ethan Jones 2:34
That's the purpose of it. Yeah.
Victoria Sprowls 2:36
And then for Liz, same question for you, what does big tech do with my with my data?
Elizabeth Forrey 2:41
So I guess the question really is what doesn't big tech do with your data. And there's three main things. I mean, you could go on and on. But really, there's advertising. They share your data with other companies. And they enhance things like AI and facial recognition. But I would really say the biggest is advertising, you know, with their data, they are looking through your interactions. They determine what you like, what you don't, locations that you're frequently at, what you're looking at when you're in a specific area. And they do that to basically enhance how they advertise things to you.
Victoria Sprowls 3:21
It's so crazy to me, when I think about having my location services turned on, on my phone, I only ever think about it in terms of "Oh, Google Maps is going to help me get to where I need to go." I never think of it as like, "Well, now Alphabet owns my data and is probably selling it or sharing it with another company."
Elizabeth Forrey 3:37
Or both. Yeah, it's the truth because a lot of what they do with this, besides their own internal data collection is sell it to other third party organizations who also want to know your location for where you are near or what demographic of an area that you're in, to kind of glean some insight into what they can market to you. And the consumer, you know, idea.
Victoria Sprowls 4:00
So when I think for a lot of Millennials, and Generation Z-ers, who grew up kind of at the same time that the Internet came into fruition, I'm kind of a part I am a part of that generation. It's always been an unspoken rule that you will hand over your data in order to gain access to the wonderful world of the internet. But how are companies using your data? And should we be more concerned about that?
Elizabeth Forrey 4:22
I think there should be concern. I mean, you know, going back to how companies use your data, we touched on that a bit, but it really does come down to advertising for me, because there is this idea of total control. You know, there are two there's a lot of there's hundreds of court cases against big tech companies, but Meta and Google, or Alphabet rather, both have advertising monopolies because of the barriers to entry that they put up for the cost of advertising on their respective platforms. And thus with all that info, there's unlimited control on what you see, what's suggested to you. And I think that, you know, it's hard because everything is so connected and getting back to this idea of monopoly is that we can't do anything but accept those terms and conditions.
Victoria Sprowls 5:11
Right.
Elizabeth Forrey 5:12
You know?
Victoria Sprowls 5:12
I mean, I don't even read. I mean, who reads them?
Ethan Jones 5:14
No.
Victoria Sprowls 5:15
You just accept them.
Elizabeth Forrey 5:16
Yeah, yeah, you just accept them.
Ethan Jones 5:19
And they know that.
Elizabeth Forrey 5:19
Right. And it's, it's hard. And that's kind of like the sticky situation, because it's like, they have control over a lot of things. They have control, not just what you're looking at to buy, but controls on new on news that you're watching and stuff. And it comes to like revenue. I mean, they have so much of their income is just from advertising. So by getting that data, it's really important to them. And I guess I can't say how do we not do that. But there's definitely a wariness that everybody should have even if right now, it's almost impossible to not accept the terms and conditions.
Victoria Sprowls 5:52
Speaking to that kind of wariness that everyone should have. When people buy the shiny new toys of VR headsets, or AI glasses, smartwatches, fitness trackers - I mean, I'm wearing a Fitbit right now -
Elizabeth Forrey 6:02
I am too. And that's owned by Alphabet.
Victoria Sprowls 6:05
What should people know about the data that they're unknowingly or sometimes knowingly handing over to - I guess, in the case of Fitbit, Alphabet - but giant tech companies behind specs?
Elizabeth Forrey 6:17
You know, the first thing I think of is nothing is sacred.
Victoria Sprowls 6:21
Okay.
Elizabeth Forrey 6:22
There are some good things that have come from any learning and any data and, you know, getting information on people and things to improve whatever service we have. But I think that, you know, it really turns out to be a lot of information that you're handing over. Like their new AR glasses that basically track everything that you do and it shows people around and it takes like pictures. So that could be culled to enhance, like facial recognition or certain AI. And, you know, I'm sure there could be some accessibility uses for that in the future.
Ethan Jones 7:03
But on the other hand...
Elizabeth Forrey 7:04
Yeah, but on the other hand, it's like, you know, not to get too sci-fi, what villainous thing could happen. But there is a lot of information, and you can get a pretty good picture of a whole entire entire person's lives without really knowing about it.
Victoria Sprowls 7:22
Right. I recently earlier this year, Apple said that they were developing new air pods that could double as a hearing aid. And yeah, and so I was like, "Oh, that's so cool!" was obviously my first thought. And then my second thought was, but then they can hear everything that someone says to me.
Elizabeth Forrey 7:39
Yeah, yeah. Right. And I know, and it's already a problem and an issue that we've heard that people have, you know, been discussing with phones and mics and this and that. So it's already like in the works. And again, there's really great things. But what are you giving up when you're doing that? Yeah.
Victoria Sprowls 7:57
I don't want to I don't want to just be doom and gloom. Let's flip over to some of maybe maybe the benefits of data collection? We'll see. We'll see what your opinion is Ethan. Which leads me to a question about entertainment and streaming streaming services. I streaming services have been gathering our data since before they were even streaming services. I mean, I can remember when Netflix was just a service that mailed DVDs to my house. Yeah, I used to go to the mailbox. They've paved the way, Netflix specifically has paved the way in data driven content decisions, creating House of Cards, in part because their data from those DVD mailings, told them, it would be a huge success. So if streaming services were to make that data public, which I know they don't really want to do at the moment, how could arts and entertainment organizations, as well as users, benefit from that transparency?
Ethan Jones 8:49
Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting what you said about Netflix really being the originator of this data methodology that they use, you know, and Netflix is on its way to really becoming as big as kind of what Liz was talking about, you know, Google and Meta. And all of that, like Netflix is really just paving its way in the stock market and everything to climb to the top, which is scary, but also like, just very interesting to see because it really does just focus on entertainment first and foremost. And like you said, Netflix and all the other streaming services right now are holding tight to their arms, this data they have about their view viewership data for their specific consumers. But really, it's just interesting to me. I came to this question, originally because I grew up measuring box office statistics for films. And I guess it's kind of why I'm here but really since like the 1980s. Well, actually since the 1930s, Variety was tracking like the box office grosses for Broadway shows and then in the 80s Variety started understanding that they could use the grosses that box office that movies make at the theater, and turn it into a marketing scheme, they really started tracking that. And then it became mandatory for all studios to announce how much money each movie is making each day. And so I was always tracking what movies are making on their opening weekend, how much money it is. And then studios are also tracking that and they turn it into a marketing scheme. On Sunday, they can announce that Spider-Man was the number one grossing movie in the world this past weekend. And that can turn a lot of people into watching it and getting they can get more money.
Victoria Sprowls 10:26
Which is kind of what, now, streaming services do.
Ethan Jones 10:28
Yeah. And it's so interesting, actually, just a couple weeks ago, Netflix announced a new website called "Top 10 Netflix" and they're, for the first time ever, releasing the total number of hours of their top 10 films and TV shows, and how many hours each of those entities were watched over the week.
Victoria Sprowls 10:45
Okay, so getting a little more transparent.
Ethan Jones 10:46
I know. So it just happened a couple weeks ago, for the first time ever, and Netflix has the power to do that. Because right now they are number one in terms of having the amount of power and the workforce that's needed to really do be a catalyst in that field. So it's super interesting that it's starting to turn over leaf just a little bit. But since streaming services have started, like I said, they're all competing for the eyes and ears of audiences and audiences are becoming more intentional with what they want to choose, they're choosing only two or three subscription services. And so it's becoming sort of a war. And I think that's why they're so not wanting to, you know, let go of this information. But an argument that has been shown is that if they're holding this information so tight, it's gonna be hard for the entertainment industry to really learn kind of what makes a movie successful, you know, and what makes a television show important to people? And what kind of shows are connecting with people and what kinds of shows are not? And so that some argue that this data is super, super important to understanding where the industry should go in the future. And it's not good that they're holding it, you know.
Victoria Sprowls 11:54
Speaking of using data, in order to retain a consumer base. Today, it's common for everyone's landing page on Netflix to look different. I'm you know, I'm not surprised that my friend's landing page looks different than mine. We've entirely different interests. But do you think that the idea of feeding people what they want in order to retain viewership doesn't give people enough freedom to discover new programming that's different than what they typically consume? It's kind of a chicken and egg scenario. Do I tell Netflix what I'm interested in? Or does Netflix tell me what I should watch based on my previous habits and the data they have on me?
Ethan Jones 12:30
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And I really do think that a lot of people who work for these companies are trying to get a good balance of that, making sure that there is, you know, a handpicked selection of titles that you already have shown interest in from the beginning. You know, when you first log in Netflix, they ask, what are the three shows that you would like to watch the most, and they have a selection, just so they can start understanding your habits a little bit.
Victoria Sprowls 12:53
On Hulu, I know - because I just recently set up a Hulu account - and they ask you like what categories are you interested in? What shows do you watch?
Ethan Jones 13:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do that. And but they're also I know that some streaming services are trying to do a balance now of like, introducing a lot more, for example, like foreign language, television shows, and films. The popularity of Squid Game really exploded, at least in America, and actually all over the world. But now a lot of people in America are more prone to surfing on an understanding and exploring different foreign language films and television shows, which is awesome, but they don't really know where to go for that. And so I know, Netflix and other streaming services are trying to group different types of IP into certain ways to where they can translate to an audience being happy.
Victoria Sprowls 13:37
But that's great. I love that they're making that effort.
Ethan Jones 13:39
Yeah. So I mean, there are benefits to this, you know, data collection, of course, but it's interesting, where do you draw the line? You know, for certain types of things like, Liz was saying, you know, Google and Meta, sorry, Apple and Meta are all just, it seems like they're collecting almost everything about you. And I don't know, when Netflix and company are going to start doing - following a similar path.
Victoria Sprowls 14:03
Yeah, and I kind of have the same question for you, Liz. To what degree should we be worried about big tech, influencing more than just our purchase decisions with advertising? But, you know, creating echo chambers that affects our very beliefs? And maybe we should already be more worried than we are?
Elizabeth Forrey 14:18
I - Yeah. I'm back with the doom and gloom. You know, it's, it's interesting, because I know, Ethan, in the in the streaming service land, there's talk about like the echo chamber of, like, is this actually good content? Or is it what the algorithm has...
Ethan Jones 14:34
Nobody knows.
Elizabeth Forrey 14:35
You know, exactly right. And we don't know that. But in big tech, we know a little more, but it's that same thing of like, is this what we're actually wanting to see, or is this something that's been generated for us? And you know, I think we should be worried. I think a lot of people who are really up on these things are already worried. I mean, you have recent whistleblowers, like Frances Haugen from Meta who came out, you know, on not just election misinformation, which we know is something that happened and Facebook had known that it had happened. The platform which then was Facebook is now Meta, right, knows what had happened and did nothing to stop it. So that's one thing there is seeing how memes and and false information and stuff can already influence a nation's thinking. And then you have another thing that came out of Frances Haugen's trial, and the idea that Facebook already has data on how poorly social media affects, I believe it was Instagram, whichever just in general, social media affects teenage girls self-esteem. And so contained in that social echo chamber of, you know, getting information and regurgitating information, in tandem with this data collection in monopoly over advertising and which companies have the funds to actually get into advertising on Google's platforms, or Alphabet's platforms, and Meta's platforms. You know, it comes to this place of huge companies, lots of money, controlled by two big conglomerates, who cannot only control what you're seeing and what you want to buy, but control what stuff you're seeing about politics and what articles you're reading. So I think there needs to be some wariness, and going out there to find different information on your own. And I say that as a caveat, because you're going to go to Google.
Ethan Jones 16:48
Yeah and I want to add, I think it's also super important to acknowledge that, like, these four companies are starting to have, you know, a monopoly on the marketplace. And that's kind of one of the scariest parts is that it's not the fact that our information is being taken, which would that is a certain big part. But the fact that Google and Meta all have this information about us that it's just this specific company that knows much about us, not just like different companies, you know.
Elizabeth Forrey 17:12
Yeah. And then in turn, as we were kind of talking about earlier, they do share that information with the other big companies, yeah, other things. And there's another thing that I think is necessary to know if people don't, you know, Meta, Apple, Alphabet, and Amazon and among other companies - together, they have about 502, other subsidiaries, mergers, etc. And it changes every day. They're always acquiring or getting rid of businesses, but so they own not just their own four big companies, but they own hundreds of other companies that aren't just tech companies. But so when you realize that you're sharing your information with them, you might not even realize it, because it's under a different name. But it's really owned by these bigger organizations.
Victoria Sprowls 18:01
And it's definitely a big debate topic. Who should you know, should the regulation come from the government? Should these corporations practice good social responsibility? Should we take it on ourselves as consumers to just know these things and either accept them or do something about it? It's a really big question.
Ethan Jones 18:21
Yeah, I think it's really just a big question of ethics. And like you said, it really is everybody's job to be the most ethical they can be. But at the end of the day, it really is about these companies, they have the power, they have that data, they have the information about these people. And it's their job to make sure that they're using it responsibly.
Victoria Sprowls 18:37
And as you were saying earlier, Liz, I mean, it's almost like you have to be a part of these companies products to live in the 21st century.
Elizabeth Forrey 18:43
Oh, yeah, you do? Absolutely. And that's why I have such strong feelings that the government should take action, you know, I mean, there's already the it's not just the United States government, they actually got like really pushed, but in the EU in a few years ago, and now, big tech litigation is coming up a lot more in the United States. And, you know, we want to practice ethics, like you're saying even, but they're not, they haven't been. And you know, sometimes they have like Apple released an iOS 14 now, that consumers can choose if they want to share their data with the App Store, and etc, which is a really good thing for consumers. But when it comes down to owning everything, from advertising, to social media, to even other entertainment industries, I mean, I wrote an article for AMT Lab earlier this in in November, and these big tech companies, their biggest place in the market, besides tech is entertainment. It's the second biggest that they have like a grasp in. So yeah, long story short, I would love to say that they can just have ethical and best practices. But it comes down to that there's been some hundreds of cases in court, that there just needs to be some government regulation. And I can't say what that'll look like, because that's a lot of decentralization.
Victoria Sprowls 20:11
Let's pivot a little and talk about how arts and nonprofit organizations can utilize this data as part of their best practices for marketing or audience retention. This is a question for either of you, I don't know who wants to go first?
Ethan Jones 20:24
Yeah, I think it comes down to that idea that Liz was talking about earlier with Google, like selective transparency is something that big companies have taken practice in, not just that big four, but also the streaming companies I'm talking about are really just only deciding specific parts of the data that they collect to announce to the public. And then they can say, "Oh, we are being transparent," but they're not being transparent about the whole picture. And so that is where a lot of the problems derive in terms of that. But in terms of like, you know, the arts management world and nonprofit organizations, those big companies, set precedents for those smaller companies, you know, that ultimately do have an effect on everyday people, you know, in Pittsburgh, in the surrounding area, around the world. And so, it's up to those companies to set an example.
Victoria Sprowls 21:13
And Liz, did you have anything to add?
Elizabeth Forrey 21:15
Honestly, I just I agree, because, you know, data is great, you know, for nonprofits, because it helps knowing your demographics, the wants and needs and interests of your patrons, and allows you to have more better and accurate programming. But keeping with that transparency is just...
Victoria Sprowls 21:36
It's a best practice.
Elizabeth Forrey 21:37
Yeah it's a best practice. And, you know, we - I've talked at least a lot about the bad of data, but like, there are great things that can come from this. And being able to do that, I think is important, and just saying I'm just kind of echoing
Ethan Jones 21:51
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important like that arts, you know, nonprofits, and arts organizations really do understand the importance of data as well, not assuming that like Google equals data, and that equals bad, like, you know, like these, like, super awesome, smaller organizations can use the same methodologies and the same power to uncover the best in their organizations and make a difference in their own way, which is something that sometimes you can, it can get lost in the sauce, you know, these organizations need to understand that data is still power. And it can be used in such beautiful ways to really, you know, bring art to marginalized communities, for example, like, that's something you can just gather statistics about certain communities and understand what is needed in those communities. And so it's super important to understand that, you know, data isn't necessarily a villain.
Victoria Sprowls 22:42
Yeah, it seems like a high wire act of trying to balance artistic integrity, introducing people to programming they've never heard of before, that maybe gives them a new perspective pushes against their comfort zone - kind of what you were talking about earlier, Ethan - balancing between that, and simply using audience data to give people exactly what they want in order to increase profits. So what are the potential opportunities and pitfalls of arts and entertainment organizations using data collection to drive decisions about what they create next? What types of museum exhibits they put on? What their next season of shows or performances will look like?
Elizabeth Forrey 23:19
I mean, I have some thoughts.
Victoria Sprowls 23:21
Go.
Elizabeth Forrey 23:22
You know, I think that any in you know, balancing that is a big thing. But I think that any innovative arts institution, whether entertainment or nonprofit, or for-profit, they will look at patron data and be able to say "Here is our safe programming, here is our kind of out there, like breaking the barriers, programming" and you, they can use data, and they will use data to simply bring in their revenue that they need to bring in because they need to have some sort of steady income. But conversely, the only issue with focusing on data is that it slows everything and prevents them from looking at the future and saying, what's the new next thing? What can we do that really entices our audience?
Victoria Sprowls 24:13
If you're only looking at past data, how can you see the future?
Elizabeth Forrey 24:17
Exactly. Yeah. Because you're not... Yeah, you put it perfectly, and making sure that you do that in a place that is balanced. Yeah, with what looking at your data and saying, This is what we've done. These are the demographics of people, we have these are their interests, and then looking at what's on the market, what's new and experimental. And that's a really great way to kind of marry the two and continue to be innovative, while still using data in catering to who you need to cater to but while breaking the barriers and opening new doors to things.
Victoria Sprowls 24:55
I love that. I think that's great. I think that you know, you gave us some gloom and doom but also some positivity from both of you. Got really interesting both sides of the argument today. Thank you so much for being here.
Ethan Jones 25:06
Thank you so much, Victoria. This has been a blast.
Elizabeth Forrey 25:08
Yeah. Thanks so much for having us.
Ethan Jones 25:10
Go data.
Victoria Sprowls 25:12
Thanks for listening to the AMT Lab podcast and don’t forget to subscribe, wherever podcasts are found. Let us know what you thought by visiting our website amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @Tech in the Arts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. Join us next time for an interview episode with Jim McCarthy about the streaming of live theatrical performances. Thanks again for listening. If you found this episode informative, educational, or inspirational, then send this to another arts aficionado in your life.