This is the second in a two-part conversation series with Andrew Plumley, the current Head of Equity and Impact for Arabella Advisors, and former Senior Director of Equity and Culture at the American Alliance of Museums, where he oversaw both AAM's internal DEAI work, as well as the Facing Change initiative, advancing museum board diversity and inclusion. In this episode, Victoria and Andrew discuss the four “Is” of oppression and how to counteract them, what decolonization efforts look like in the museum space given the history of stolen artifacts, and the top three changes Andrew suggests for arts organizations working toward implementing DEAI practices.

Andrew Plumley 0:02

There's some really, really great work going on across the museum field around accessibility, particularly intersectional accessibility, where we really are adding, or layering in, folks that are disabled and also black or brown or etc. And so just having that intersection is important.

Victoria Sprowls 0:19

Welcome to an interview episode of Tech in the Arts, brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer, and this is the second half of my interview with Andrew Plumley. If you haven't listened to the first half, be sure to go back and do so. Continuing on with part two right now. In an article you wrote for AAM, last year, I found a phrase I had never heard before, "the Four Is of Oppression: Ideological, Institutional, Interpersonal, and Internalized." So I'm not going to ask you to explain it all. Because as we already said, In this podcast, you know, do your own research. But what recommendations do you have for listeners who want to know more about the core theories underpinning these types of oppression, and how they might work towards countering them?

Andrew Plumley 1:03

Yeah, so I think this is a really - one of the - a really helpful and important framework and way to orient yourself to work. And I talk about it in kind of those four "Is" of oppression, or really the four stages of kind of any sort of -ism, or Obeah. So and I talked about it a little bit in the time I was with the MAM, the MAM students, which is really like the personal, interpersonal, organizational, and structural, you can hear it in different forms. But it's always four stages. And really, at that personal stage, that's where our beliefs, our unconscious bias resides, it's really kind of where things are formed. And just most of the time society kind of imprints that on us. at the interpersonal level, that's when our biases, our stereotypes, or our beliefs and values actually play out with one another. And that's really where we start to get into a little bit of trouble. If my values don't align with yours, or my beliefs, don't align with yours, or your stereotype is actually in some way, harming me, then we're going to have some issues. So that's where the intrapersonal happens. At the organizational level, those biases, those stereotypes, "it's the way we do things around here," actually getting embedded into practices, policies, and process. And so then all of those things that we have actually haven't really deconstructed to know if those are correct or not get baked into organizations. And then at the structural level, that's where all of those biases, stereotypes, prejudice, etc. And organizations get kind of mixed up together within systems. So the museum field has its own issues. But we're also many of us are part of nonprofits or higher ed institutions, or kind of a mix of public and private or state, and local. And those systems are kind of intersecting. And so ultimately, we're also a part of multiple systems. And so those are the four levels and for, for every museum and museum professional, it's really important that we're doing DEAI work at each level of those stages, but at different paces. So we all need to do work around unconscious bias and understanding our lenses and how we bring our different perspectives to the work. We have to do some work around the interpersonal about how we actually interact with each other around relationship building and understanding different perspectives. We have to then use those lenses that we learn to deconstruct and unlearn facts - or have to first recognize where there's bias baked into, and inequity, baked into our organizations and our organizational culture. And then understanding that, as a museum field, we're part of specific systems. And so there's an equity baked into those particular systems too. And museums have a responsibility to do DEAI work, particularly equity work, at those four levels. And so that's really what those four you know, four levels of oppression are, or the four "Is" of oppression are talking about.

Victoria Sprowls 4:16

So today, many museums around the world contain art and artifacts that were stolen from their countries of origin during colonial rule or looted during war. Many American museums contain Indigenous artifacts that Indigenous people consider stolen. What are some good examples you've seen of museums responding and reacting to their colonial history? And what does decolonization efforts look like in the museum space?

Andrew Plumley 4:41

So this is a whole area of study that I am, I'll just say, I'm not an expert on. Decolonizing museums is a huge field of study, and I believe it's under a large kind of umbrella of equity work, justice work specifically and what I love about decolonizing is that, to me, it really moves into more of a justice space. That because justice, to me, has to do with repair and looking backward to see what past harms have done been done to see how we rectify those things in the future. And so to me, it's a critical piece for particularly cultural institutions and museums, specifically, because of the particular way that museums were constituted, and the particular sorts of harm that museums have done to our own communities. So I think just generally speaking, "deco" is where we should head particularly for museums that hold objects, but but for everybody. And so the way that I think about "deco," and you know, again, I'm not an expert, there's like two different ways. There's the kind of external, in terms of how we think about the narratives we tell, and how, and the exhibits that we that we have, there's kind of like "for the museum audience" sort of decolonizing work. That's really about what we put up on our walls, or what we show to folks coming into our museums. And then there's the internal decolonizing work, which again, is about making sure that we're repairing past harms that we're letting folks from community - particularly indigenous folks, folks who had ancestry of enslaved folks - they're a part of our of our museum to inform how we actually build a future for our museum. And so it's really trying to move away from White dominant norms, and who gets to make specific decisions to allow more folks in that were - that we did harm in the past, in terms of our kind of internal organizational culture, so that we're actually informed by the folks that we that we've harmed in the past. And so it's kind of internal and external, is the way that I think about it, and the museums that do really, really well create relationships with those communities, and address, and are accountable for, past harms that were done. And sometimes that means bringing folks in, as board members who can make who can vote who have, you know, who have decision-making power. Sometimes those are advisory councils, sometimes that's actually giving particular objects back to those communities and repatriation. I know that repatriation and giving objects back is a for - in some ways, very complicated, given the laws and rules of, you know, how it even came to be. But ultimately, many of the museums that I work with, all of those objects are stolen. And so if we're not thinking about and not realistic about giving those objects back, we're not really doing all that we can to make those communities in which we took from whole again.

Victoria Sprowls 8:00

Yeah, that's a, definitely a larger point that I also can't really speak to, but from the entertainment industry, I've also seen a more centering of Indigenous people working like within the narrative, instead of just bringing them on at the end to kind of rubber stamp projects that were already made. So I think your seeing that in the museum field, as well is, yeah, definitely something from the last, you know, five to ten years, which is crazy to think about but...

Andrew Plumley 8:28

Yeah, it's still relatively new, at least at least in the way that it's framed right now. But yeah, it's also an ends to a - a means to an end. Like if you if you can't have a process that has, you can't get to decolonizing as an end product if you don't have decolonization or folks who have decolonized their minds within the process to get there. So totally hear you.

Victoria Sprowls 8:51

So moving back to DEAI work as a whole. I think the importance of it intuitively makes sense when thinking about cultural, historical, and art museums. However, what does DEAI look like in terms of other types of museums like botanical gardens, zoos, and aquariums? The shape that DEAI work takes in the workplace might be similar, but institutionally, it has to look a little different, right?

Andrew Plumley 9:21

Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is super interesting because the frameworks that we can all use remain relatively the same, but the context is really different for those folks, and or in some cases, and one way is that I just think about, you know, the the way that an art museum might think about climate justice and environmental justice, that's going to be a different sort of conversation, maybe around maybe on the periphery. But when you think about zoos, when you think about botanic gardens, and who's actually even working there, and who the climate is really affecting the most at what paces. That is all talking about equity - particularly racial equity in the American context, or general global equity around the global south and other in other places. And so they have to think about it from a systems-level around climate change and climate justice in ways that maybe art museums don't have to right now. But I think that's like one context where folks are starting to shift to. I also think about, obviously, we were talking about museum leadership being predominantly White. But when we think about botanic gardens, zoos, when we think about STEM, there are historically underrepresented population, demographic populations, within, you know, our largest system of museums. And I think when we think about botanic gardens, and zoos, and aquariums, that is also what we're seeing a just predominantly White space based on where folks actually study, and in terms of, you know, the opportunities that folks of color might have in terms of getting into those fields. So there's still absolutely pipeline issues around who can actually become a botanist. Or work at a...

Victoria Sprowls 11:14

A zoologist.

Andrew Plumley 11:15

Or a zoologist. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's pipeline issues there. But there are still, I just want to say, there are still qualified applicants across the country that are, you know, are top-notch in any of these fields. But to me, it's the context for kind of how they think about equity internally, given the inequity, of how climate change affects folks or animals or issues for their particular particular focus area. That's, that's how I would think about it.

Victoria Sprowls 11:47

Yeah no, that's a really, that's a really great thing to bring up. I mean, I haven't - honestly, I haven't been to a zoo since I was little, probably, but I know that when I went, who knows, 15-20 years ago, they they definitely weren't centering, you know, a global context. It was more just, you know, look at these animals.

Andrew Plumley 12:06

Right. Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, you have to think about where these animals are coming from, their relationship to the people that have been there, and then ultimately, who's taking care of and watching over those particular animals, as well.

Victoria Sprowls 12:21

So continuing to speak about DEAI work, the "A" for accessibility is the newest letter in the family of DEI work. What do you see accessibility in terms of disability looking like in museums beyond minimum ADA compliance? And I know that I think, accessibility also can relate to economic accessibility. But I did kind of want to center here on on more disability accessibility?

Andrew Plumley 12:46

Yeah. So yeah, I think the "A" is, the "A" in the DEAI is often the one that is focused on least because I think it's the one that particularly for someone like me, who is able-bodied, I still take so much of my body for granted. And so until we're kind of living with with something different, it's, it's harder for people to get into that mindset. With that being said, there's some really, really great work going on across the museum field around accessibility, particularly intersectional accessibility, where we really are adding - layering in folks that are disabled, and also black or brown, or etc. And so just having that intersection is important. One of the things so when we think about accessibility at AAM, and from AAM's perspective, it's really around two things around kind of the disability space. One is actually can you enter the physical space of a museum? What what, what can we do to make sure that folks of any ability can enter into your space and experience your exhibitions and experience what they're supposed to, given, you know, given what you're showing? That's, that's one aspect. Another is around, kind of, what we call neurodiversity of folks that learn in multiple different ways. What what level of access do you have for them, for folks that are on the spectrums - on the spectrum? You know, if we need specific tactile things, how is that actually manifesting within your museum? So that's kind of the two ways outside of the economic kind of access that we're talking about, that we're we're thinking about, and obviously, entering any building takes a bunch of things, you know, architects have are doing are doing this much better now than they ever have. But it also takes capital to make sure that things are actually accessible. But again, in terms of sustainability for your museum, if you're if you're not even accessible to everybody within your community, then it's not a really sustainable way to move into the future. In terms of, we saw this, all with the digital access stuff in 2020 and beyond, making sure that your programs are accessible digitally is a huge piece of this. Particularly, you know, we were doing, AAM was doing sessions, where we weren't actually transcribing things for folks that were hard of hearing. And so we just had to make sure that we were actually centering those folks and their experience so that they can access the materials, the very good materials that many of us actually put out every day to make sure that everyone can actually read here, and access that, that those those things. And I'll just say, with the economic access, that's really important, too. If a ticket is $35, for every entry fee, not everyone's going to be able to do that, given the racial wealth gap, given the wealth gap between men and women. So I think it's really, it's really crucial to add that economic factor in as well.

Victoria Sprowls 16:02

I've had such a great time talking to you today. Thank you for being here. And I just have one last question for you. I know that you are overseeing the Facing Change Initiative at AAM, which is working towards advancing museum board diversity and inclusion. What are the top three changes you suggest for arts organizations working toward implementing DEAI practices? And I know we've talked about it a little here and there throughout the podcast, but just succinctly at the end here.

Andrew Plumley 16:31

Yeah. One is that there's really, you know, just understanding that DEAI work, there's no fixed endpoint, this is an ongoing journey. And because it's an ongoing journey, everyone needs to be involved. And so people any from leadership down to docents to volunteers, anybody, the most junior staff, staffers, everyone needs to see their role in this work. And so that's one thing that I think takes a lot more work than, you know, it's easier said than done. But I think making sure everybody, cross-functionally, understands their particular role and how it fits into DEAI generally and tying DEAI to the mission, vision, and values of the museum is critical in driving work forward. That's the one thing. The second thing is, I would say that shifting from a diversity and inclusion frame to an equity frame is critical. Equity is a particular sort of work. And it's really about mitigating and ultimately eliminating identity-based disparities within your museum and within, you know, within your community. And so that is a really particular thing. It's eliminating and mitigating identity-based disparity, instead of saying, we need to do a fellowship, or we need to create some pipelines for more diverse folks coming into our museum. It's really that equity work that we really need to focus on. And third is, if we're going to do equity work, we have to disaggregate data by identity. So when we're thinking about who's entering our museums, when we're looking at compensation, promotion, hiring, retention, we have to make sure that we have data based on identity so that we can get some longitudinal outcomes data, or data that we track over a period of time to to get some baseline data, and then see if we're actually mitigating disparity in anything that we're measuring. So those are the three things that I would say.

Victoria Sprowls 18:35

Amazing. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for being here.

Andrew Plumley 18:38

Thank you.

Victoria Sprowls 18:38

It's a great conversation. Yeah. And something that I really didn't know a lot about until I until I went to your lecture. And today, too so.

Andrew Plumley 18:45

Thank you so much, Victoria. I appreciate it.

Victoria Sprowls 18:47

Thank you for listening to Tech in the Arts. We'll be taking a short summer break here at AMT Lab, but new episodes will be coming to you very soon. Be on the lookout! If you found this episode, informative, educational, or inspirational send this to another arts aficionado and your life. You can let us know what you thought by visiting our website: amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @TechintheArts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. We'll see you for the next episode.