Victoria is joined by Dr. Heng Wu, Curator of Asian Art at the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria and Nick Pozek, Assistant Director at the Parker School of Foreign and Comparative Law at Columbia University to talk about the place of technology in the administrative and curatorial roles of art museums. Conversations touch on what it is like to work from home in a position that has more of a physical necessity in the museum space, the place for virtual museum experiences post-covid and other pandemic-related challenges, as well as the more prominent entrance of edutainment in the artistic sphere.

Victoria Sprowls 0:05

Welcome to an interview episode brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer. In today's episode, I will be talking with my guests about the future place of technology in the administration and creation of art museums. Joining me today is Dr. Heng Wu, who received her PhD in Museum Studies from the University of Bergen in Norway. After which she was the deputy director of the cultural exchange center for the Nanjing Museum, and is now the curator of Asian Art at the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria. I'm also joined today by Nick Pozek, Assistant Director at the Parker School of Foreign and Comparative Law at Columbia University, where he conceptualizes and organizes conferences, symposia, lecture series and research projects about geopolitics, international law, and globalization. Nick has also held leadership roles at the League of American Orchestras, Asia Society and Carnegie Museum of Art. So my first question today might be a little bit more for you Heng, I'm wondering, what was the biggest challenge working from home in a field that in some ways is all about the physical location? You know, the museum itself.

Dr. Heng Wu 1:15

Uh huh. Actually, I should say there hasn't been so challenging for me. Like as expected, in the beginning of the working from home, I was kind of concerned like, how can how should I like continue my research on my curatorial work, but then...

Victoria Sprowls 1:33

Right.

Dr. Heng Wu 1:34

...next to the technology, that I have no problem to get remotely connected to our database. And also, I got many benefits from working from home because my schedule is flexible. So I can work like when I feel best, like in the working mode. So yeah. But the what I, what I miss most is to see the audience in our physical space, and to see how they are responding to our shows and collections. That's the part I miss most.

Victoria Sprowls 2:11

Yeah. And then kind of responding to that feedback, like in live time as opposed to just over over technology over zoom or email. Yeah. Yeah. So this past summer, we did a podcast all about virtual museum visits offered in different museums around the world. Do you think this kind of online museum experience is here to stay? Or do you think it was just a temporary fix in the age of stay-at-home mandates, and I guess if either of you have an opinion about this?

Nick Pozek 2:42

So for a lot of art fairs, launched these kind of virtual fairs and these experiences that were supposed to simulate the experience of going to an art fair and being in... I'm surrounded by, you know, the arts community, and there was an immediate backlash and kind of disenchantment with - A lot of folks said, you know, these, - this isn't a virtual fair, this is a website. And so the virtual experience, it's great, it's wonderful for researchers, it does a lot to offer a kind of symbolic experience of art, but it does very little to actually experience the works in person or have the experience of really going through an exhibition, and really understanding you know, things like the sight lines, or the kind of cerebral connections that happen by being just just around and looking closely at the work looking closely at kind of the brush strokes and the material qualities of the work and the kind of the visceral experience of it like that just, it just isn't there with a virtual experience. And there are things that virtual does very well. And I certainly think it's here to stay, but it's certainly not going to be something that supplants the physical visit.

Victoria Sprowls 4:05

Right, it's interesting, you brought that up. Last week, we did a podcast about like the potential of the metaverse, which would be more of like a VR experience instead of a website, you know, a 2-D website. But it's true what you say about the brush strokes in person, like, you can't really replicate that, as hard as you might wanna try.

Nick Pozek 4:18

Yeah, if you look at images of VR, people actually experiencing VR, what you often see are like folks wearing these kind of like big goofy goggles. They may have paddles in either hand. It's an incredibly isolating experience. It's an experience that's not about connection to other humans or about connections to the world. And that's the other thing that museum museums offer, right? It's not just a physical place where you come and look at art. It's a place, it's a forum, where you interact with others and you experience art as a community and you engage in dialogue and conversation. That's why museums are are really great at tackling really difficult topics, things that are controversial or complex, because they're these sort of multifaceted community spaces.

Victoria Sprowls 5:09

I saw you nodding your head Heng, did you have? Did you have anything to add about about curation and community?

Dr. Heng Wu 5:16

I couldn't agree more with Nick, on this regard. And I think we are exactly on the same page. Because I like, personally, as a person who, who has a museum studies as my background, and have have been in this field for many years, I really believe in the should I say, the material nature of museum and the museum collections. So yeah, I mean, like Nick has mentioned, the museum is not only a place for collections, and also for people to, to gather to have this social interactions to like a forum. So yeah, totally. I don't think this online, virtual things can replace, like it can substitute the museum experience. But on the mean, at the meantime, I also think, like, online experience, has also brought some new benefits to the museums. Because like, for example, we do have some new audience, right? This audience who might have no time or no facilities to come to the museum, now they can get this more or less same experience online, they can still engage with collections or the shows. So yeah, I think we have some new audience. And also, museums now are more open for their resources to be shared with a broad audience. And, yeah, I think this is also one of the benefits, benefits that online experience can bring to us. Another thing I would think is it also reduced or removed as a distance, physical distance, like it's now it's totally, like globally connected community, like a person, for example, in Shanghai can easily get access to the gallery in Milan, for example. So yeah, I mean, like technology has, has brought us many new benefits. But I still agree with Nick. Nothing can replace the physical.

Victoria Sprowls 7:32

Yeah, what I'm what I'm hearing is kind of it does allow for a sense of community in the sense that you can now see other people's work in different countries, but it's still kind of if you're viewing it online, or even in VR, it's it's more of an isolating experience than like a communal viewing of art, and Heng I know that the Art Gallery of Victoria, you currently have an exhibit called “Retainers of Anarchy,” which is a 25 meter scroll-like video installation that references life during the Song Dynasty, and more recent digitizations of historical scrolls. How do you see immersive exhibits as the next wave in museum curation?

Dr. Heng Wu 8:14

Yeah, this show is by an artist called Howie Tsui. And I wasn't involved in this program, because I just joined the gallery last year. So this was a program which had been worked on previously by our former chief curator Michelle Jaques. But yeah, it's, it's the visual, visual result is quite powerful, like I can see the visitors are really enjoying it. But again, this immersive, immersive experience, in my personal view, I think only can be something which may it it can, like enhance, in a way, the museum visiting experience, but it cannot really replace the conventional museum visiting experience.

Victoria Sprowls 9:13

Do you see it more as maybe a way to get people that might not have been as willing to go to a museum before, in the door and then once they're in the door...

Dr. Heng Wu 9:23

We have to understand our audience is so diverse, like some people really love it, some people hate it. Right? So yeah, I mean, what museums could offer is to offer different like a diversified opportunities for the audience to have their own choice to like to which shows to see and which experience they want to gain. So I believe museums can have this - now and then - can have some immersive it's like a virtual experience, but still we do need to the other the arts, the traditional forms of museum experience.

Nick Pozek 10:03

You know, I think one of the things that's most interesting for me is when artists actually just use these technologies to create immersive experiences. And then it becomes an extra kind of layer on top of an exhibition. And that's, I think that's in a way more meaningful. And often artists will create works that are digital that are in dialogue with a collection. I think also a bit dated now, but 2017, Jordan Wolfson had a piece in the Whitney Biennial, which was this VR headset piece, where I don't I don't know if you've seen it. But when you put on the headset, you're kind of immediately mentally locked into like the VR environment. And what you see in front of you is this like gruesome attack, Wolfson actually like portrays and assailant, just assaulting a person, and you have the option as the viewer to either watch this, which is it was really, really hard to watch, it was just like, unbearable and kind of impossible to stomach or turning away and creating spirit, being kind of complicit in it or just ignoring this assault. And it created this really interesting kind of personal dilemma. And that was a marvelous use of the technology. And that was a wonderful insertion into an exhibition that I think has a very important place in museums.

Victoria Sprowls 11:38

Right. So maybe it's more powerful when it's used by artists, on purpose than it is by curators. And I'm about to bring up something that I know is extremely controversial in the in the museum field. But how do you both personally feel? Or what are you sensing in the industry, about the impact of edu-tainment events, like the immersive Van Gogh exhibits, that are currently traveling across the US? It seems like it seems like they do compete with with museums in a certain way. And what do you think this - How do you How are you feeling about it? And what do you think this means for museums in the future? And do you think it competes with museums? Or do you think it's a completely different experience?

Dr. Heng Wu 12:26

I don't feel it's a compete like compete. It's a totally different experience.

Victoria Sprowls 12:32

Yes, for sure.

Dr. Heng Wu 12:33

For me, previously said like, I'm not in favor of this. But I do understand this. Like, some people would be crazy about this, especially on for people like who who haven't had any chance to really see Van Gogh's original work.

Victoria Sprowls 12:50

Right.

Dr. Heng Wu 12:52

Yeah, but as like, as I said, like, I'm a museum person, like...

Victoria Sprowls 12:57

Through and through, yeah.

Dr. Heng Wu 12:58

...in the conventional museum way, I really, really hope our audience could use any chance to come to the gallery like to the actual space to see the works, in person.

Victoria Sprowls 13:16

Yeah, instead of more of a kind of entertainment-ified version.

Dr. Heng Wu 13:22

Yeah, I think in some way, this kind of experience will also alter a little bit of the of the real sense or meaning of the original works. So um, yeah, I'm a little bit concerned

Victoria Sprowls 13:39

It's kind of what you were saying, Nick, about how, you know, Van Gogh was alive a long time ago, and has no has no sway over how his art is being used in this way. And so we can't be sure that this would have been his intent or that he would have approved of this, you know, kind of entertainment-ifying of his artwork. Yeah.

Nick Pozek 14:02

Looking specifically to Van Gogh and his legacy, right. He was completely underappreciated in his time. I wonder if his experience of going to this, you know, the immersive Van Gogh exhibition, he would just be floored, be like, "Wow, my work has really made it." Yeah.

Victoria Sprowls 14:17

Maybe he'd be happy, yeah!

Nick Pozek 14:18

It's hard to say. I mean, I'm with Heng insofar as I'm kind of neutral on these experiences. I don't think that they're wholly a bad thing. I, you know, it's the same way like a screensaver, or mouse pad or coffee mug or calendar. We don't we don't say Oh, well, you know, if somebody is going to buy the Van Gogh calendar, they're not going to come to a museum, they're actually probably more likely to come to a museum.

Victoria Sprowls 14:40

Right.

Nick Pozek 14:41

So I think that exposure is a good thing. I think more art is generally better. Is it the best possible experience of art? Probably not.

Victoria Sprowls 14:53

But any art is good art.

Nick Pozek 14:54

Right.

Victoria Sprowls 14:55

Yeah. And then my last question for both of you is what was the greatest challenge for museums during the pandemic. What was the greatest challenge for you personally? And how did you work to kind of combat these challenges? I know Nick, you don't work directly with museums, but you might still have a have a opinion on this?

Nick Pozek 15:14

Well, we start with museums closing, right when they can't physically allow visitors into the building, it suddenly changes their entire operational model, it meant that exhibitions weren't going up, it meant that tickets weren't being taken. And so admissions desks closed. Art installers were furloughed. I think that exposed a really complicated and problematic hierarchy within cultural institutions and exasperated some of the dilemmas that museums are already experiencing. Right, in 2019, I think was Vulture published an article about - or a kind of tongue in cheek ranking of museum's boards, identifying the most toxic of them, seeing that museums had already created these problematic cultures that were now becoming more evident in the public imagination and becoming something that museums would need to tackle moving forward, or need to address head on, moving forward. And these aren't, these certainly certainly aren't new, right? We look at the Art Workers Coalition in the 1960s and the 70s, which demanded representation of women and people of color, both in the galleries and on museum's boards - and actually also demanded the representation of artists on museum boards. So there is a kind of inequality that the museum hierarchy presents. And I think that you know, that when you have an entire rung of the museum infrastructure, looking for employment elsewhere, because they simply can't go to work, because the museum isn't paying them. That, that creates a lot of tension and a lot of problems. And it begs a lot of questions about what who these museums serve and how museums treat people that have dedicated their lives and their careers to their service.

Victoria Sprowls 17:24

And for you, Heng what has been the biggest challenge for you and for your museum in the pandemic.

Dr. Heng Wu 17:31

Okay, for for my museum, like the challenges for museums in general. I think Nick has talked a lot about and specifically for our museum, I think we we have been trying to be open as possible as we could. So we were closed only, like about three months, yes, then we were open up to now. And we have been also making many efforts to to substitute the experience that the audience has been missing through technology for some. But in terms of me, personally, I think the challenge is, I've been always thinking about during this COVID time like, as a curate how to make efforts to like, in the curatorial side, to send a message to our audience to still connect our audience. So I have been, for example, right after COVID. We quickly put on an exhibition, and it's called “Collecting and Connecting.” And it's about our new acquisitions. But but it just I think the message I was trying to deliver is we are still connected. Like even the door was opened, but we're still connected like when the door is reopened like, you are all welcome back.

Victoria Sprowls 19:03

Trying trying to keep the community even if it's still COVID times, right.

Dr. Heng Wu 19:08

That's right, keep the community still connected. And another then I also made another exhibition, which is still on at our galleries is called "Glocal" (Global Local.)

Victoria Sprowls 19:19

Okay, I like it.

Dr. Heng Wu 19:22

Yeah, it's about it's totally using our own collections. It's about the Blue and White porcelains, but in like a global perspective, I use this exhibition to explore the relative relationship between local and the global because because like we are all so limited to our like tied the to our local space, like we can travel but with, like technology, with the internet, we are still globally connected. So yeah, this is like something I'm trying to do: use a curatorial approach to, to connect our audience and to send the message to invite them to think about, in this challenging time, think about like to consider to reflect on.

Victoria Sprowls 20:20

It's a - Yeah, no, it sounds incredible. And if if any of our listeners are in Victoria, you should hurry up and go go see it.

Nick Pozek 20:31

You know, I do actually have one quick remark and that's just beyond technology, something that I think museums have done exceptionally well has been leveraging their facades, to communicate, and to show their collections, The Jewish Museum, and the Queens Museum here in New York have, you know, when their doors were closed, used the front's of the buildings to really present art. And that's a tremendous and powerful way of connecting with the community in a very real way.

Victoria Sprowls 20:59

Right. So even if the doors are closed, you know, we're still here. We're still showcasing art for you. We want to be a part of the community kind of kind of thing. Yeah.

Nick Pozek 21:06

Right, and you don't need to come to our websites.

Victoria Sprowls 21:08

Yes. In person, in person, even if not in the building. Yeah. All right. Thank you both so much.

Nick Pozek 21:15

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you and take care.

Dr. Heng Wu 21:17

Thank you.

Victoria Sprowls 21:21

Thanks for listening to the AMT Lab podcast. And don't forget to subscribe - wherever podcasts are found. Let us know what you thought by visiting our website, AMT-lab.org. That's AMT-lab.org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @techinthearts or on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. Tune in next time for our Let's Talk series. Thanks again for listening. If you found this episode, informative, educational or inspirational, then send this to another arts aficionado in your life. We'll see you next time.