In this interview episode, Andrew is joined by Jim McCarthy, the co-founder and CEO of Stellar Tickets and Goldstar, to discuss how theatres can cultivate broader audiences with livestreaming and how it will grow in the next three years. The conversation touches on how livestreaming is going to be a part of the next generation of TheaterMakers, how organizations can increase community via livestreamed events, and how livestreaming is the ticket to connecting with audiences across the globe.

Jim McCarthy 0:00

But when you think about what you actually do when you're in an in person event, you don't really interact with people very much. And so in a strange way, the digital format actually creates more opportunities for community and interaction than then the in person opportunities. The in person events do sometimes.

Andrew Wolverton 0:19

Welcome to an interview episode brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab here at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Andrew Wolverton, the interactive and technology manager. Joining us today to talk about livestreaming in the theater industry is Jim McCarthy. Jim McCarthy is the co-founder and CEO of Stellar Tickets and Goldstar, a company that sells millions of live event tickets to millions of people on behalf of more than 5000 venues and producers each year. An e-commerce veteran, Jim has spent his entire career in high-growth businesses and likes to share his knowledge and insights with others. He's the editor and main contributor to SellingOut.com, a website for live entertainment and arts marketers. And finally, he's the curator and co-founder of TEDx Broadway. Jim, thank you for being with us today. So I'd love to get a little bit more insight on what you do on a day-to-day basis, and how things have been going for you?

Jim McCarthy 1:15

Well, you know, I'm running Stellar on a day-to-day basis, which is a hybrid hybrid online platform for people who understand the opportunity that digital live entertainment and arts represents. And, you know, I've spent the last 20 years running Goldstar, selling a lot of tickets to a lot of live entertainment and arts. So we're, you know, we're in the middle of or I should say, the beginning of a new industry, which is the digital really the digital live entertainment space is new. And we're a new company in a new space, that I think has just tremendous growth potential over the the years and decades to come. And it's every day is a new adventure in that area.

Andrew Wolverton 1:58

So for those who are maybe not as familiar with digital events, could you explain how digital events should be tailored to digital audiences? How is it different from live events, you know, in this ways of interactions, the styles of the show, you know, what it what is needed to have a successful digital and livestream event?

Jim McCarthy 2:19

It's, the main thing is that you can't just stick a camera in front of a an in-person event and say, "Oh, it's a digital event." I think that's really, if you that, I really believe it. When I say I really, I really mean it when I say that, that's 80% of the battle. Because the sooner you see the distinction between filming something that's happening anyway and creating something that's designed to be watched by people, you know, both in-person and, and at home, as soon as you see that, you start to realize the kinds of things that you have to do a little bit differently. So you, you know, you're, first of all, you're shooting it for the screen, you're not just shooting it, right? One of the things that comes up is like, well, there's archival footage, but it's not the same, right. And archival recording is meant to just record what happened. But none of us really watches you know, you don't go to Netflix and watch archival content, right, they someone has put time and effort into making it work for the screen. And the second thing is, roughly speaking, is that the best digital or online events are ones that create a sense of place and a sense of time, where you're there with other people, you're interacting potentially with other people. But at a minimum, you have a sense that you're experiencing something that's happening with with somebody else, just the way you do with an in-person event.

Andrew Wolverton 3:34

Right. So it's it's about creating a sense of community through this online space and does Stellar, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you guys integrate sort of chat features as well.

Jim McCarthy 3:44

Yep.

Andrew Wolverton 3:45

For audiences, how does that work successfully?

Jim McCarthy 3:48

I mean, you know, what's so interesting about audience chat is that sometimes, you know, for an hour before the event starts, and the stream lobby is open, people come into it, and the people who are interested in chatting go into the chat, and they, I think, to get as much or more out of the experience, maybe not more. They get a lot, I should say, out of the experience of just being there with other people, talking with other people, often about their passion for the show, or the content that they're about to see. We just watched it, you know, we watch people keep themselves very engaged and entertained, both before and after the show. I mean, their shows where people stay in the in the chat for an hour afterwards. And they're talking about what they just saw, or they're just talking to each other or whatever. And, you know, even during the show, it's this kind of thing where it occurred to me, people talk about the in-person experience a lot, and I love going to live theater and music and everything else as much as anybody, probably more than most people. But when you think about what you actually do, when you're in an in-person event, you don't really interact with other people very much. They're there, and you're there, and you hear them and you see them, but you don't - I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't tend to you know, strike up a conversation with the person sitting next to me. Or at least a meaningful conversation, you know, if I'm in the theater or something like that. And so in a strange way the digital format actually creates more opportunities for community and interaction. Than than the in-person opportunities to do some of the in-person events do sometimes. So that's an interesting oppor- you know, when you think about it as a creator, when you think about it as a theatre maker, for example, which I'm looking at your t-shirt, and I'm seeing the words "theatre maker," you, you really do have a better point of of entry, a better way of leveraging the idea of people interacting in and getting something out of the presence of other people besides just seeing and hearing them.

Andrew Wolverton 5:40

Right. And so, you know, as we are moving back into in-person events, it's kind of interesting, I was reading the Goldstar's "Readiness to Return" surveys. And as you know, the numbers keep going up and showing, you know, I think it's 71% in November of your Goldstar subscribers, were saying that they're ready to return to in-person events. So what is - I think you've kind of answered a bit about, you know, what is the argument for livestreaming? What's the argument?

Jim McCarthy 6:05

Well, so the example that I always like to give is this, and you're a theater guy, so I'll do a theater example. I think you I don't maybe you have an opinion on this. Do you have an opinion? Or do you know, what would you call the best small theater in the whole wide world? If you got an opinion on that?

Andrew Wolverton 6:18

The best small theater in the...

Jim McCarthy 6:19

...the whole world, the whole world?

Andrew Wolverton 6:21

I mean, I would say it's probably community theater that I grew up with.

Jim McCarthy 6:24

Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. So but what whether whether it's the one that you like, or whether the one that is the one that somebody else would name is the best small theater in the whole wide world? That's got to be pretty good, right? If their best small theater in the whole world, that's got to be pretty good, right? You'd agree that that's a good theater? What size of an audience does the theater like that deserve? Based on the quality of its content?

Andrew Wolverton 6:45

More than the three hundred and fifty seats that they serve per show?

Jim McCarthy 6:49

Yeah, that's right, yeah. So I did the math on this, right. Like, even if you assume, you know, two to three hundred seats, or whatever, and a lot of performances, each year, really successful small theaters, probably gonna have an audience of about 50,000 people in a year. They're gonna see 50,000 people. Now I would be, it would be a really, really difficult challenge to convince me that the world's greatest small theatre doesn't deserve an audience fifty times that size. Because they're doing great. I mean, obviously, to be the greatest small theatre, they're doing something pretty special. And so the, you know, in a way, we already, we already sort of understand this intuitively: digital and online enables a great creator, or organization, to extend their audience all over the world. And to extend it without the limits of just who happens to be, you know, in their neighborhood, or who happens to be in their city. When you're doing great work. Well, of course, you want an audience as big as possible, it's hard to serve an audience like that, just with in-person. I mean, it's certainly special to be, you know, in a theater, but it's also special, just to participate in something that you'll never have a chance to go to, right. Like if the only people who ever watched a professional basketball were the ones that made it into the arenas, there'd be a lot fewer basketball fans. You know, there's just no reason to put that sort of limitation on there because we have the tools and the technology and the know-how to do it now.

Andrew Wolverton 8:10

Right. One of my one of my dreams would be to have Freestyle Love Supreme streamed, you know, live every night for millions of people around the world. And and a show such as that where it is interactive, you know, with audiences - improv, you know, especially. Personally, I think that would be a show that would would have a tremendous amount of success being livestreamed. And again, as you mentioned, just that interactive community, they that that type of show allows.

Jim McCarthy 8:35

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And there's a lot of different ways to do it. I mean, someone like, someone might look at it and say, Well, I don't want to do it every night. Well, that's okay, too, right? You could have one a week or one a month, or a couple of times on a tour or whatever, whatever it is, right? There's a lot of ways to come at this, where you're not just replicating the model of being onstage in an in-person venue you're looking at and saying, Well, how, if I think of it as just cultivating an audience, that's not necessarily in the building? What do I do? Like, what's the right way to do that, and people are going to come up with different solutions for that. Some of them will say, "Well, you know, I want to do you know, one special broadcast on a, on a, on a four-week run," or some people are gonna do, you know, every night, or whatever it is, there's a whole bunch of ways to come at it. And the other thing that I think is worth talking about is the idea of a show that's not just, you know, I make a distinction. So here's something I would say: we're talking about hybrid events, we're talking about events where there's an in-person audience, and you can watch it online. Right. Hybrid events are very exciting, because they, they come in a couple of flavors. So here's something that people might want to think about. One kind of hybrid event is what I call the ride-along hybrid event. And what I mean by that is, there's an in-person event that's happening, and and you could say, the main thing is the in-person event, right? And you're making it possible for people who aren't there to be able to experience that that event, I call that a ride-along hybrid where you get what I'm saying?

Andrew Wolverton 10:02

Right. Yeah.

Jim McCarthy 10:04

The other kind is, is what I what I actually think is maybe even more interesting in the long term is the online-first event where you create the event and you can have a an in-person audience, and that could be a really important and exciting aspect of it, but that is designed fundamentally to be an online event...

Andrew Wolverton 10:23

Right. Exactly.

Jim McCarthy 10:24

...with a worldwide audience, right? There's that and that with that, you just start to go like, Okay, well, instead of, instead of thinking of it, sort of working backwards from the in-person event, going online, you can also look at it and say, let's start from a blank screen, and build an online-first event that has an in-person audience. And that, to me is very exciting. Because this is where if someone, maybe not Freestyle Love Supreme -well maybe Freestyle Love Supreme, but somebody like that could literally have, you know, a Saturday night show that is improved, and that changes every time, and has different people - all the things that you identified with Freestyle Love Supreme, but it's natively an online show, and, you know, goes from there. This is an extremely exciting concept. And then being one of the two hundred people who get to sit in the room when they do it would be even more exciting, right? Because you know, there's 50,000 people watching it at home and 200 people watching it in the in the in the venue. So that's very exciting to me. I think somebody is going to innovate that - many people will innovate that and be extremely successful with it as time goes on.

Andrew Wolverton 11:24

But I think we're seeing a lot of that success on Twitch, Facebook, gaming, YouTube Live. You know a lot of people think Twitch is just for gaming. But you know, there's a plethora of non-gaming platforms, I believe in 2020, there were 2.9 billion hours of watched content for non-gaming content. Yeah, you know, that is, that's an astounding amount of time for someone to sit there on a digital platform, and just kind of watch somebody talking or doing whatever interactions.

Jim McCarthy 11:51

Yeah, you're right. Twitch has sort of proven that that this is viable, where I think that the next opportunity is is for, in some cases, bringing a little more to what you're watching, right. Like, I know, people love watching people game or or to talk or that kind of thing. But there's there anyone I think about the the theater makers out there, the live entertainment creators, they are generally better at making shows than the average Twitch, you know, streamer. Right.

Andrew Wolverton 12:17

Hopefully, hopefully, yes.

Jim McCarthy 12:18

Well, I think they are right? And if they're not, then yeah, and I'm not saying look, I'm not looking down my nose at Twitch streamers, they they're doing something that people want. But I take that as a signal to those who focus on being able to create great shows that there's an opportunity here. And and I think we just can't be you can't be afraid of that opportunity.

Andrew Wolverton 12:37

So is there is there something to be said about offering free livestreams versus paid livestreams, such as how Twitch is interacting with their audiences, if they - you know, you can subscribe to them? Or you can sit there and watch for free? You know, what, what's your opinion on that?

Jim McCarthy 12:51

I think it's, it's got to be a marketing mix, right, you got to think about what works to achieve your goals. One of the things you can do in Stellar and other places too, but one of the things that stellar enables is you can have, simply have subscribers to your video content. So you can have paid subscribers who get access to something that you decide to put out on a periodic basis. And so rather than thinking of it as a ticket sales model, where people pay every time they kind of, you know, go through the turnstile, so to speak, they're just in for five bucks a month or six bucks a month. And however often you produce content, they have access to it and you grow that base, that's another way. Right? I also think that there are all kinds of avenues to - free to the consumer, but sponsored content - that you can do, right? There's a whole bunch of opportunities in that, or, or a combination, right? So you can imagine free content that sets up a paid event that people you know, there's some distinction between the free and the paid content. And to build an audience, you might use free content, and then you turn to the paid content when when the time comes. So it really isn't one thing you know, it's it's really a medium that I think the main point I would make is that live entertainment creators, theater creators, people who run who, you know, promote music or whatever, they have this giant new capability in on their desk in front of them. And they need to really put their hands on it and start to work it and see what happens and see what they can do and take it very seriously. I think the worst thing that people can do is disrespect the medium in some way because they don't understand it yet. You know? And you know, it's new, it's novel. You know, we we became aware of it during the pandemic because there was no way to gather in person, but don't let that fool you. Right, that the it's not really a stopgap we stumbled onto this thing as a stopgap. But in truth, it's a supercharger for what you can do, whatever whatever your ambitions are, as a live entertainment or theater creator, or arts creator, this can be a supercharger for those ambitions.

Andrew Wolverton 15:00

And so it really makes me think, you know, given the potential that we have here, how do these smaller organizations, smaller theaters, how are they supposed to get those numbers? You know, that, you know, that have thousands of people, you know, does the platform in which they're using matter you know, whether they're running it through their own website, whether they're running it through Stellar, or, you know, on any other type of streaming sites. How can organizations use this, and what are the best practices for them to gain a larger audience?

Jim McCarthy 15:33

Yeah. I mean, it's so there's so many different answers to that, depending on where you are. I think one thing is, you need to have a long-term mindset on audience building, and you have to have a mindset that the content is going to be really serving that audience well. And I know that's a little bit of a broad, broad answer, but, but it's still the truth because I'm not saying that good content will always win out. That's not necessarily true. But I do think that if someone is committed to being great at this medium, then there are a lot of different tools that people can use to build an audience for that. And the great thing is, I mean, so if you're in the theater world, and you've marketed theater in the past, you know that the most frustrating thing about that is that step one, eliminate 99% or more of all the people who might be interested in your show because they're not in the town that your show is in.

Andrew Wolverton 15:50

Right.

Jim McCarthy 16:14

Step one, right, in your marketing plan: cut out almost everybody and whoever's left, that's who your target market is. Well, really, now, it's, it's the inverse of that, where you say, we don't necessarily cut anyone out. But you start looking for the people who would be enthusiastic about this content, almost anywhere they are, I mean, time zones are a reality. But just for the sake of simplicity, let's just say, you can - anybody who's a fan, or who could be a fan of what you're doing, anywhere they are, is in your market. So it's it's almost an inverse of what you do the other way around. And then you start to think, "Okay, what are the tools to reach those people?" Obviously, the usual ones are there, you know, social media search, that kind of thing. Also, just organic, the organic building of the of the the content base, you want to have an asset that you own, you know, you want to have a list of people that you can reach, and you want that list to be growing based on their enthusiasm for your for what you're what you're doing. So, you know, there's no shortcut to "how do you build a marketing plan," behind that. But what I'm saying is, if you're if you're used to marketing theater, let's say, then you're used to the idea that step one is to eliminate almost everybody from your target market, because they're not local. Right?

Andrew Wolverton 17:40

Right.

Jim McCarthy 17:41

You don't have to do that with with the online side. You have to think in terms of where are the people that should be fans or could be fans of this? And then how do I begin to reorient my way of searching for them to that reality instead of the other one.

Andrew Wolverton 17:53

It reminds me a lot of how Netflix markets with niche markets, per se, is kind of what you're saying, you know, finding that niche market within the grand scheme of of the world, really. And so, I want to ask you, back in 2015 - so "Daddy Long Legs," that was produced by Ken Davenport, was the first Off-Broadway show to be livestreamed. And so they had 150,000 people viewing it within 24 hours from 135 countries.

Jim McCarthy 18:20

Wow.

Andrew Wolverton 18:20

So flashing forward to today, and events like the "Jagged Little Pill" concert, that was on Stellar, you know, what growth is there in comparison to 2015? You know, what, what, what are the numbers looking like today? You know, what are those key successes that you have seen between then and now?

Jim McCarthy 18:37

Well, when Ken did that show, I had no idea that it reached that many countries. That's - That's amazing. It was the only thing you - it was, it was newsworthy in and of itself just for being there. He's always, you know, one of the first people to do anything. That's Ken. Now as you point out, millions of people are watching livestreams every day, right? Like, even if it's outside the realm of the kind of world that that we live in, I don't know what the the exact number, the last time I looked. It was something like live digital content, not like Zooms or whatever. But live digital content had grown something like 20x since 2018. And so, my call to the live entertainment creator world is: get in on this. And they are. There are a lot of people doing this. A lot of people got into it because of the pandemic and my call to them is don't neglect this opportunity - that the pandemic opened the door. And it's sitting there, right? I mean that the business model of theater and the business model of live entertainment is a - it's an okay business, but it's got a lot of negatives to it, right, including the capacity of the theater and the difficulty of reaching an audience that's not local. But this opens the door to fixing or addressing those business model challenges. But it requires a lot of, well - I find that actually, it's less of a challenge for younger people. It requires a certain amount of just saying okay, maybe things will be different in the future, than than they are - or they have been up to now. So we're going through this weird thing where some people who were in the online space nine months ago are out of it temporarily because they're fighting like hell to get back on stage. It's very understandable. But I think that you know, if the live entertainment or digital-live entertainment arts does not emerge over the next few years, it'll basically mean that, as an industry, we missed the giant opportunity that everybody else is capitalizing on. And I don't think it's going to happen. I think it will be capitalized on.

Andrew Wolverton 20:30

Right and talking about those challenges for organizations who might want to do livestreaming. I know that there's the issue of working with AEA contracts, working with the role of unions. And so how does that play into livestreaming? Because I know that it can be a major barrier for folks.

Jim McCarthy 20:52

Yeah, I think that the more people push on this in terms of the, the more that creators are knocking on the door and saying, "We want to do this." It'll create more pressure to make the modifications that that need to get made, you know, so that people don't see it as a threat. I think sometimes people see it as a threat. And in fact, it's a golden opportunity, right? It's a golden opportunity for everybody. And, and, you know, it has to be done in a way that, you know, takes people's interests into account. But you can't let it stop you you got to push, I think that the more pushing there is, the sooner we'll get to a good resolution and be able to have terms of engagement that we can, that we can live with. And I think that's the other thing that can happen is that when, when when people who are especially, I think, young and entrepreneurial-minded people in the space, start to say, "Well, if I can't do that, I can do this." And they start to innovate in the direction of the things they can do, those things can get very, very big and powerful. And then kind of ultimately feedback into the main thing and say, "Hey, don't you want to, you know, participate in the kind of success that we're having over here." So it, it's you know, it's never, it's never easy or clear at the beginning of of a medium are a new sort of industry, it's always really, really unclear how the discontinuity from the past is going to resolve itself. And we're in a period of that right now. We're in this period, where I think over the next two to three years, in particular, this stuff is going to mature in some really interesting ways. But it's unclear to us now, because we're in it.

Andrew Wolverton 22:26

Right. It's a blue ocean market, really, for us to be able to kind of set the terms and set the norms of how this will look what this will look like and how it will shape out in the next I think, you know, five/ten years here. Like you said, to see whether if this is something that you know, fizzles out and something that we missed out on, or see how we can capitalize. Jim, I do want to thank you, you know, for being here. And I want to give you the last word on, you know, any other last thoughts? Or if you want to tell people more about Stellar and Goldstar?

Jim McCarthy 22:58

Yeah, well, sure. I mean, if you're thinking about doing online events, or digital live entertainment arts, however you want to call it, call us and we can we can be helpful to you and that Stellar is built to be a platform that's, that does ticketing and streaming and a bunch of other stuff for people who are serious about hybrid opportunities, in particular, people who are doing a lot of stuff and want to cultivate an audience for their digital content. And in a way that's also potentially hybrid to an in-person space. But I guess my main thing is to say, this is a big opportunity. And it's a little bit of an unknown, a lot of an unknown. And it's maybe a little bit scary to people who have a good grasp on how to do the in-person, part of the business. But don't be scared of it. It opens doors that have been closed. You know, for people in the live entertainment. It opens the doors for people to get paid better, do interesting work, lead the culture, have creativity emerge in a new way, reach a bigger audience. It's like everything, every good thing that you want. When people make a list of what their hopes and dreams are for theater, for example, the things on that list are the things that are made possible by by digital, and by online, you know, especially hybrid events. So don't be afraid of it, you got to jump in. There is a price that you got to pay, right? There's a certain amount of work and learning that you have to go through to get good at it. But you will. And as time goes on, I think the people who can do this very well are going to be the leaders of the industry overall. So be one of those. That's my message.

Andrew Wolverton 24:30

Well, thank you, Jim, for opening the doors. As you as you so well, well put.

Jim McCarthy 24:35

My pleasure.

Andrew Wolverton 24:35

Opening the doors to this digital world and thank you for joining us today. Thanks for listening to this interview episode brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab here at Carnegie Mellon University. And let us know what you thought by visiting our website amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @TechintheArts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab.

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