In this episode, Victoria Sprowls and Andrew Wolverton interview Tom Kalnas, an AMT Lab contributor, and Eric Neal, a Third Act founder, about NFTs and their use cases in both film and theater. Tom Kalnas discusses the potential for NFTs as smart contracts that distribute royalties, as well as fundraising tools in indie film production. Then, Eric Neal highlights the future of NFTs in theater, answering many questions about how the process works and pointing out how NFTs can enhance the theater-going experience as commemorative, sought-after collectibles.

Eric Neal 0:02

Time in the market beats timing the market. I think if you're just waiting for a perfect moment, it will pass you and you will not even realize it until it's too late.

Victoria Sprowls 0:12

Welcome to an Interview episode of Tech in the Arts brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer.

Andrew Wolverton 0:22

And I'm Andrew Wolverton the Technology and Interactive Content Manager.

Victoria Sprowls 0:26

And today we're bringing you two interviews about the potential for NF Ts in the future of theater and film. First, I'll sit down with Tom Kalnas, a contributor to the Arts Management and Technology Lab to discuss NFTs as a fundraising tool in the media landscape. Then Andrew will interview Eric Neal of Third Act, a premier NFT platform for theater and Broadway. Thank you for being here.

Tom Kalnas 0:48

It's a pleasure. Thank you, Victoria.

Victoria Sprowls 0:49

Yeah. So in looking into some of your research before you came in today, I came across an interesting phrase distribution, waterfall. So tell us about the distribution waterfall of revenue in regards to film and how it affects independent film production companies differently than larger companies.

Tom Kalnas 1:06

Yes, well, Victoria, as you know, it takes a long time for a film to turn a profit, right, it takes like one to three years for a film to become profitable. And of course, these films range and budget size, you have an independent film like Moonlight by A24, which had a budget of like a million and a half. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides, which, which cost $378.5 million. Because of this, they have to do a lot of front loading when it comes to investments. So they need a lot of initial investments. So the distribution waterfall to answer your question tells us how an individual film will eventually repay those initial investors. Once that film goes to market and starts generating profit.

Victoria Sprowls 1:54

How do you see NFT is helping to increase that profitability?

Tom Kalnas 1:58

A few different ways. In the past, production studios had to rely on what they call a collective arts management agreement or a CAMA, which is it's just an entity like a third party, accounting entity or a bank that collects the revenue from the market from a feature film and kind of distributes the revenue down the waterfall. But with NFTs studios can now design NFTs that work as their own accounting vehicles. For investors. Through smart contracts, the distribution waterfall can be programmed into an NFT. So if a film was profitable, NFT investors would automatically receive a return on investment, plus interest, plus royalty payments, sent directly to their virtual wallets. This eliminates the need for a third-party collective arts management agreement. Which means that you don't have to pay a third party extra money means you get to save money on the back end.

Victoria Sprowls 2:54

Right. So instead of having like an accounting firm do this. Instead, it would just all be digitalized through an NFT. And it would just automatically happen once a film reaches a certain threshold of profit? Tom Kalnas 3:08 Right. If I was an investor and I bought an NFT, I would know that in that smart contract, that money would be programmed back to me. Once that film hits the market.

Victoria Sprowls 3:18

It kind of solves the problem of you know, not knowing whether or not you ever will actually get your money. Even if you did get a return maybe like the studio is being stingy, this and that, this kind of solves that problem.

Tom Kalnas 3:29

Right. Additionally, an Indie production company can sell NFTs on the open market, and crowdsource investors from all around the world. This way, technically, anyone can become an investor in a Hollywood movie.

Victoria Sprowls 3:41

That's interesting. I know that bowing down to fans demands can be an issue in the entertainment field. Do you think that allowing the masses to invest in a movie through buying an NFT will make production companies or directors beholden to the fans slash, you know, regular people that have invested in the film?

Tom Kalnas 3:59

Yeah, to an extent? Absolutely. I mean, crowdsourcing is becoming more popular, right? And companies collect more data on their audiences. So production companies are developing a very exact understanding of what their audience wants, like, exactly. And because of that, studios won't have to rely on the opinions of these veteran filmmakers who think that they really know what everybody wants, when in actuality, the data says, you know, something different. So, maybe if a director was working with like a, an established franchise, say like, if a director is working with Marvel, then they might not have the same amount of leeway as a creative director to make these executive decisions, right. They might have to follow the data, you know, instead. But then again, the reason that fans love artists is because of their sense of independence. And I find it hard to believe that like anybody will come up with Steven Soderbergh or Kathryn Bigelow to change direction style because, because the that's what the audience wants.

Victoria Sprowls 5:04

Right. They're not gonna go up to you know, these directors and say, "Well, I invested in this movie and I do not like the ending and I would like my money back."

Tom Kalnas 5:10

Exactly. Because you invested in the movie because you believe in the artist...

Victoria Sprowls 5:15

...and in their vision. Exactly. So in a way, it just gives more independent artists, the power to follow their own artistic vision, because the fans believe in them and want to invest in that.

Tom Kalnas 5:27

Right. But on the flip side, okay, if you're an artist and you're not established, say you're like a no name like me, you might not have the opportunity to express yourself and your individuality in the same way, because you might have to conform to these new rules.

Victoria Sprowls 5:45

So what do you think NFTs are capable of improving in the entertainment field?

Tom Kalnas 5:50

The entertainment industry relies heavily on merchandising to make money, right, fans love to show their support to a certain show or franchise by buying a t-shirt buying hat. Well, NFTs are like the new version of that.

Victoria Sprowls 6:05

Okay...

Tom Kalnas 6:05

So digital merchandise is easy to make. It's free to make. And if a studio is working with a famous actor, with a large fan base, they can create and sell NFTs to commemorate the actor's role in their film.

Victoria Sprowls 6:19

So it's kind of like it's would it be a little akin to like, modern-day GIFs? Like, I like to look at GIFs, of like people in movies. Oh, I could like buy that and that will be mine alone?

Tom Kalnas 6:35

Imagine if there was a GIF that nobody else ever saw before. But it's like a secret GIF. And you were like, I love Kristen Stewart. I need this secret GIF. And I'm just gonna buy it. And I'm not gonna show anybody. It's mine now.

Victoria Sprowls 6:53

Right? Okay. Yeah. And it's cool. Because in that sense, with a lot of merchandise today, it's like anybody can have the same thing as you. Like, they could have the same shirt, they could have the same hat. But now you're kind of, it's kind of like a collector's item.

Tom Kalnas 7:07

Yes. A great example of this actually, is Quentin Tarantino, who just sold his original handwritten script of Pulp Fiction.

Victoria Sprowls 7:18

Like, like in real life, not as an NFT?

Tom Kalnas 7:20

As NFTs, that's what he did. So he scanned every page of this handwritten script. And he said, "Okay, I'm going to sell scene one as an NFT, and scene five as an NFT."

Victoria Sprowls 7:31

Wow, that's a really interesting, one, money-making scheme for him. And two, you know, as someone who loves film, would be a really great item to have like in your collection if you are a collector. Yeah.

Tom Kalnas 7:45

Exactly.

Victoria Sprowls 7:45

Yeah, that's great. What are you most excited for about like the future of NFTs in film specifically?

Tom Kalnas 7:54

In the future future, say 10 years down the road, when metaverse integration is kind of more popular than it is today, I think that these films that we know and love are going to be integrated into the metaverse fairly quickly. For instance, I had a thought the other day. I was like, I, you know, I have a nephew and he loves Batman. And a few years from now, if my nephew is in the metaverse, I could buy him a Batman NFT, which allows him to dress up like Batman in the metaverse and go around and throw Batarangs in the metaverse.

Victoria Sprowls 8:29

Interesting. Kind of like a Batman skin like a video game skin.

Tom Kalnas 8:32

Yeah, just like that.

Victoria Sprowls 8:33

Right. That's awesome. Well, thank you for being here today. I'm a little you know, you've kind of demystified the NFT process just a little bit.

Tom Kalnas 8:40

Tried to.

Victoria Sprowls 8:41

Yeah, I know. It's it's a large topic, and we didn't get to all of it today. But thank you for sharing your insights with us.

Tom Kalnas 8:46

It's a pleasure, Victoria. Thanks for having me.

Victoria Sprowls 8:48

Yeah.

Andrew Wolverton 8:51

Next up, I speak with Eric Neal of Third Act. Third Act uses NFT technology to deliver theaters most memorable moments to fans around the globe. NFTs on Third Act are one of a kind digital collectibles made in partnership with productions and personalities. So Eric, thank you so much for joining us. And for those who don't know anything about Third Act and who you are and what you do, I'd love for you to kind of give an explanation to our audience.

Eric Neal 9:20

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Andrew. Third Act is theater's first NFT marketplace, we deal with digital collectibles and look to extend the story from the stage of theater into digital worlds.

Andrew Wolverton 9:33

So there are a lot of people out there that I feel like they don't quite know what an NFT is. And it's relatively new. And as we were just talking, it's become like the word of the year. So for those who are sort of new to this, what's the best way for them to understand that? Is there an analogy, something that they can really connect with this new digital collectible or network that we have.

Eric Neal 10:01

Yeah, it's a it's the most common question. It's not silly at all, I think it's new, it's going to be new for a long time. For a lot of people it seems to be rolling out like in waves, I think waves of people are getting introduced to it time over time. And it's going through age groups, the easiest way to think about it is it's simply a digital file that is unique unto itself. So it has - think of it like having a serial code or a barcode to it. The real power that I think is the, the ledger that it's associated with. So being on a public and decentralized public ledger is what really gives an NFT its value. So what that means is this digital asset is stored and recorded in a publicly accessible way, in multiple places. So it's, it's close to permanent, and it's transparent. So if it changes hands, or if it's sold or traded in any fashion that's recorded on this permanent public ledger, that everybody has access to see.

Andrew Wolverton 10:58

Kind of like the Carfax reports that cars have, we can kind of see who's owned it, what's happened to it over time.

Eric Neal 11:05

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. It's, yeah, if every NFT was a car, and it had its own record, you could see who owned it and where they drove it and who they sold it to and how much that's a great way to put it.

Andrew Wolverton 11:15

So I guess my thought is, how do you even create an NFT, something that's digital, for something that is inherently non-digital, such as the theater?

Eric Neal 11:23

Yeah, it's I think that's why they're, they're kind of really well suited because as a theater-goer, or a theater fan, you're already really interested in an ephemeral product and experience. So to have something that's a little less tangible, from from the jump being an NFT. I think there's there's some parallels there that work in our favor. You can go from - it's a hybrid between marketing and merchandise. So it can be the things that shows released before curtain opens to build hype and to get the name out in front of people and have people collecting and trading things. And it can also be the souvenir that you take home after the show, like a show program, or if you're getting the mug or the sweater, if there's a certain level of fandom with the show, people want everything to do with it. And this is the new frontier of merchandise that is going to have some future use cases that we're still all discovering together collectively. So I think that's kind of where you kind of put the use case for it right now. It's in this collectible, it's in this this realm of super fandom, where people can't get enough of it.

Andrew Wolverton 12:34

Kind of have that practical use. I've seen a couple of instances where there have been NFTs for tickets, and also The Wrong Man, which was, I guess, has been dubbed now if the first NFT musical. So, you know, I feel like with that it becomes more than a collectible. So how do you see that building and growing into this world?

Eric Neal 12:58

I mean, that's it's a great point, you're very well-read on the on the subject. So we actually have, as a team, we huddled together and made a response article actually on our blog around The Wrong Man and the musical form - or sorry, the the form that they chose to use the the NFT as. Because it was met with some controversy for sure. It was not all positive. But the the beauty of the NFT is it is really a blank slate. It can really be whatever you want. It can be you know, the poster art, it can be the ticket to redeem at show. It can be the entire musical in an NFT. Our philosophy has been that the NFT should enhance the experience, it's not going to be the experience that's not in our intention right now. We, a lot of our team comes from theatrical backgrounds, we love the theater. This is all around fueling more live stage and live theatrical productions. So we don't want to make a product that competes with seeing the live show, we want something that enhances and integrates into the theater-going experience as a pre or post-show commemorative item. To put an entire musical into NFT is a completely different kind of product where there's a whole level of access that comes into question. It's very exclusive, and we try to push more accessible NFTs and accessible experiences through our NFTs.

Andrew Wolverton 14:25

Right. Yeah, I noticed that main feature NFTs you have is of Brian Stokes Mitchell. How exactly did you go about getting the NFT? Because there's there's a whole lot of rights that are involved in that and obviously Brian Stokes has to sign off on that. So how does that work?

Eric Neal 14:43

Yeah, for us. We have a really great partner that we work with on that one, Atomic Focus Entertainment. We were working with them on a show with Brian. He was hosting a talk show called Crossovers Live that was streamed on on Stellar Tickets and as we were going through this, this project with them, we were building this platform. And it seemed like there was an opportunity here to, you know, a window where we could publish a collection in his likeness. And, yeah, we had to move fast on it. So it wasn't as much of a, it was less of a hard sell, because we had a short window to get this done and make something great. And so we worked with our in-house NFT studio, which creates the creative assets themselves. And it was something that he had a lot of trust in us to produce, and Atomic. And we knew that it was a long-term play. We figured this is going to be something that we want to repeat and do multiple times with other actors and get them involved, and ultimately advocate for the actors in the industry to create, you know, a passive form of revenue for them in the long term.

Andrew Wolverton 15:53

So how many units did you sell of Brian Stokes Mitchell? How many did you offer? I guess I should say.

Eric Neal 16:00

We only offered three.

Andrew Wolverton 16:02

Three of them.

Eric Neal 16:03

Yep.

Andrew Wolverton 16:03

And then there are I know, they were like different model or different models of them, or different positions, I guess that he, he had. So there, there was only like one of each that one person was able to get a hold of?

Eric Neal 16:15

Correct. Correct. Limited supply limited engagement. There's no hard and fast rule for it yet. Everybody, the common question of pricing and quantity always comes up. And there's, it's still being defined a little bit. I think, you know, obviously, a more limited number of quantity infers a higher value. But I think that we're interested in making sure that they are accessible to a degree. So not everything is going to be a one of one, some things will be. We did some some collections with Herding Cats, which had a few unique poster artworks, where there were more supply - supply of 10, supply of 20. And we've done instances where we paired the NFT with ticket sales. And so we've been able to distribute to ticket buyers a free NFT to start, which was a really common one to get people in and interested in, like, you know, see if they really do like it rather than making making them purchase the first one to see if they like it or enjoy it.

Andrew Wolverton 17:08

And once I, let's say it, you know, I get that NFT with my ticket. Well, what would I do with that? Theoretically? I mean, you guys kind of post it, you know? So, you know, for everyone else, you know, is it something to post on social media? Is it's something - I've seen people use it as their profile pictures, I think has been a popular thing from other other NFTs that are out there. What what do I do with that, since I can't really put it up on my wall, to showcase for people to come over? What would you do with that, I guess?

Eric Neal 17:36

Yeah, I mean, right now, a lot of it is is the bragging rights associated with it, because they are limited supply, if you have some if they can be a proof of you attending performance. There are digital frames that you can expect an announcement from us on in the next few months, where you can display them in your home, it's using the specific asset or file itself. So you are displaying your your truly own piece of artwork. And there's utility use cases that we're building in the near future that I can't give away too much on right now, but there's going to be digital and you know, real-life experiences that are going to be accessible or unlocked with ownership of certain NFTs that's inevitable. So there will be some use cases. I think right now it's around owning it, it's around a percentage of royalties going back to production. That's a big thing we advocate on as well, which is, this is not like selling a coffee mug with a show logo on it. Where if it you know if the show goes and wins a Tony and people want it, there's no more left. If you resell that, that piece the production doesn't get any value from it. Our collectibles have a royalty function in them where productions are seeing revenue down the line as well. So it's a great way to support the show if you're a true fan and have that keepsake as well.

Andrew Wolverton 18:52

I agree with what you said earlier about this hybrid sort of experience. I was speaking with Jim McCarthy with Stellar Tickets. A couple months ago, we had him on for a podcast and he said the exact same thing you know, like as for live streaming, you know, it's about enhancing the live event, creating these hybrid experiences and not replacing going in person. And I think that some of that pushback that I've noticed from the Twitter posts that Playbill announced when The Wrong Man, when they had the press release for The Wrong Man. You know there was a lot of pushback, people saying "well, why do we need this nothing replaces the life person event," and I think everybody's in agreement with that. Nobody is actually trying to replace, you know, the, the physical things that we can collect and the experience. But it is definitely yeah, about creating that enhancement and people love collectibles. You know? Collecting stamps isn't for everybody. They're, you know, collecting coins, you know, they're they're select people that like to collect these things. And I think that we're definitely coming into a new generation who want those collectibles. I kind of want to build off of what you mentioned a second ago about you have the royalties for the NFTs. And so that kind of makes me wonder, where does the ownership lie with that NFT? Originally, you know, for for play or musical, does it lie with the playwright? Does it lie with the producer? You know, and then then when you get into licensing the shows, you know, does MTI or Rodgers and Hammerstein? Do they get parts of that royalty?

Eric Neal 20:32

I live and breathe those questions every day. So I think the easiest analogy there is buying the coffee mug of the show does not give you any underlying rights of the show. And it's pretty basic IP copyright law, where owning an item that is, a piece of licensed merchandise doesn't give you access to the underlying IP. So even if I were to own a script and buy a script of a play, it doesn't give me the right to put it on the stage, it doesn't take anything away from the author in, in that, that respect. So when you own the NFT, you're owning that specific instance. That's why it works with NFTs, as opposed to just posting on Instagram, because Instagram, it's centralized in one place, it's proliferated all through social and it's everywhere. And so the IP is actually not as defined where it is what it is, as opposed to NFT, which has a specific serial code and file name. So that's how we get around that when you're working with whose rights are it, it's whoever's licensed it for for merchandising, and to be able to create derivative work or merchandise and market from from the piece of IP. So that's kind of where we start with the NFT. And we go into using icons from the show, we go into creating original pieces of artwork as well. If other people are involved that have a strong hand in the artwork itself, we'll always look to include them. The easiest way for us has been making sure that the royalty goes back to the production as a whole, which is all encompassing and they can divide that up amongst stakeholders as they see fit.

Andrew Wolverton 22:07

Right. So if you were to create an NFT of every character in the show, for instance. Would the playwright then sort of need to get permission to the I guess, the artist, the digital artist, for that ahead of time, what are the steps that are involved with that?

Eric Neal 22:26

Yeah, so I mean, let me see, it's a really great question. And it's like three parts, but I'll try to answer it as simply as possible. So when producers are securing their rights, a lot of times they'll secure the rights to market and merchandise from the show. So with that comes the ability to create merchandise, which is inclusive of NFTs. So if an artist or an actor is depicted in it, they can be included in the royalty directly or they could be compensated after the fact through the production, or it may not be required, that might just be the instance. And then it comes down to whether or not the producers, it's kind of on them to decide how they want to handle that. But as long as the as there's somebody who has, you know, in writing secured the rights to produce a piece of merchandise from IP, or from a show, they're able to create NFTs out of it. So we work with them, we have a contract or an agreement with them that, you know, they certify that they have the right to do this and that we're going to create these assets with them and for them. And that's kind of how we go through that process.

Andrew Wolverton 23:28

It's not necessarily something that is completely out of a producer's wheelhouse in what they would normally do.

Eric Neal 23:35

Yeah, that's where we found, when we investigate some of these contracts, that a lot of them were actually already covered for NFTs. We offered some language that was really explicit to it. And we have it as a template if producers want to use that include in their contracts, but a lot of them are already covered if they're if they're covering for merchandise.

Andrew Wolverton 23:54

And where would, where would a producer find, do they find the digital artist? Or would they go to Third Act and does Third Act sort of have that digital artist to create these?

Eric Neal 24:04

Yeah, so that was one of the, that was like the second step that happened after I realized, you know, I want to make this great marketplace that's equitable and great for the industry. And then when I got into conversations with producers, some of the first questions were what is an NFT? What should it be? How much should it cost? What should it look like? Can it be show art? Can it be a blooper? Can it be behind the scenes? And the answer is yes. And it's it's, it's a spoils - it's a problem of opportunity where it's a blank canvas, it can be anything. So what I quickly did after that was was build a bit of a studio offering. An NFT studio where we can create the creative assets --- we have artists, designers, 3D renderers, graphic designers on staff and roster that can produce the creative assets as well. So that if you have IP, we have all the means to take you from IP to NFT as a as a full kind of integrated solution.

Andrew Wolverton 24:57

So some of the the criticism and pushback with NFTs, there's a lot of issues in it being eco-friendly, the amount of energy that it can consume. Are there sort of new ways that you've seen that we can be a bit more conscious of, of how we are using this energy. I know there's a lot of talk about, you know, Ethereum 2.0, trying to use less energy, but I feel like I've been hearing about Ethereum 2.0 for quite a while now and still waiting for it. So how how does Third Act make that a little bit more eco-friendly? Or at least try to?

Eric Neal 25:30

Yeah, it's a great, that's a great question and was one of the most important things we decided on, which was not to use Ethereum because of the ecological damage that came with it. NFTs are fun, they're new. There's a lot of hype around them. They're exciting. They have a real-world benefit, not at the cost of the environment. That's silly. I think. Ethereum and Bitcoin are some of the biggest vendors on that. And so after just doing a little bit of research, I found a network called Hedera Hashgraph, a leading enterprise, blockchain and ledger provider. And after some research and vetting of networks out there really quickly realized that they were probably the strongest partner for this. So they have nodes that are run by IBM, Google, T-Mobile, they just signed Ubisoft on last week. So have some pretty big council members. It's all public and transparent. And those are the people that are backing your assets and confirming transactions. So really big, reputable companies.

Andrew Wolverton 26:34

Is that is that a certain coin that's being used then to purchase these NFTs?

Eric Neal 26:38

Yeah, so you're you're using a utility token that we issue that is the effectively the same as a USDC. So we, I can tell you the process really simply of how it works, and then I'll tell you behind the scenes, what happens. We've integrated Stripe, the you know, the probably the most well known and used widely used payment processor on the internet, pretty much every stop Shopify site uses that. We use Stripe as an on ramp to issue you cryptocurrency tokens that are only usable within our ecosystem, Third Act tokens. We don't advertise them too heavily, because for our theater audience, it doesn't really matter. The important thing is that we match them one to one with USD, so that if you ever want to withdraw funds from your account, you can withdraw them one to one USD, and it's wired into your bank account back into your card or your account. So Stripe is the on and off ramp, which is really important in the middle is when the crypto happens. So that's when we issue you your utility tokens. And that's how we can list everything in USD and not have prices fluctuate when the price of any token fluctuates. One last piece, I should note on the ecological side is that Hedera Hashgraph is first of all, it's very fast. It's you know, 1000s and 1000s of transactions per second, as opposed to Ethereum, which is, you know, dozens of transactions. And the ecological impact is around 10,000 times smaller than Ethereum or Bitcoin and can be less than a Visa transaction, Visa swipe, comparing that with a Hedera Hashgraph transaction.

Andrew Wolverton 28:09

So what you're saying is that it's mainly stored in house so that way, you're able to control the essentially how everything's being sold, and you're not using up any more energy, than really just sort of what your computer are just normally doing. It kind of just does that on its own a quick transaction.

Eric Neal 28:27

Yeah, there's a really lightweight exchange, basically, crypto to USD for a fee at exchange off the top to get you into the platform. And it's the same thing that gets you off. that kind of exchange. So just keeps it everything in a language everybody's familiar with.

Andrew Wolverton 28:42

And then how do I how do I receive that NFT? Do you send me an email with an attachment to it? Or is it in some sort of wallet? What does that look like after I purchase it?

Eric Neal 28:51

Yeah, that's a great question. We've integrated the wallet right into your third act account. So you it's made in the process of you making an account on the platform. So one click and it's asking for you to make a password for your wallet, which can be separate from your account if you want like a different password. And that's where it's stored. So it's on your account very similar to an Instagram or another social media site where you have your your profile and your feed with your collection. And that's where it's housed, where you can show it off. Certainly you can kind of show it off on social media and whatnot, but that's where it's housed, where all the profiles kind of show off their wares, braggings happen and exchanges and whatnot. So the key piece I should bring up because you brought up the wallet aspect as well is that you truly do own your assets on Third Act, because the the wallets are non-custodial. So as a platform, we don't back up your passwords. We don't have access to your passwords to your wallet. So there's never an instance where we can go in and move assets that you own. That's completely up to you, the owner or the fan.

Andrew Wolverton 29:57

Is that owner able to sell that NFT to somebody else through Third Act, or does it go through any third, or can they sell it through a different third party? What does that look like?

Eric Neal 30:06

Yeah, so right now you you can be, we're just about to launch that secondary market feature, where you're able to relist NFTs you buy directly from the productions themselves. And you could list it as a straight sale. So make me an offer of this number, or you could list it as an auction with a with a floor price. And, you know, let the bidding begin. So that's kind of a also a utility that comes out of it. And then on that sale as well, productions get a royalty on whatever that sale may be as well. So yes, yes, is where Stokes wins a ton of, you know, Tony’s it could become very desirable because there's only three of them out there.

Andrew Wolverton 30:45

So sort of kind of tie this together, what is your argument for a producer to get an NFT for their next show now and not wait for the next 5-10 years, to when, you know, the public starts understanding it more and it becomes, you know, becomes a bit more well known? What's your sell to a producer for right now?

Eric Neal 31:06

You know, it's a great question. I think there was actually a really good quote on this, that is "time in the market beats timing the market." I think, if you're just waiting for a perfect moment, it will pass you and you will not even realize it until it's too late. Yes, you can get involved later, will there be more competition? Absolutely. Will the market have moved to a different place? Absolutely. I think people might be looking for a different experience that at that point, or NFTs that were minted in the past may have utility in the future that new ones might not, or there might be maybe more coveted because of that. So you know, the first editions, those are the things that have a lot of value down the road, and that people end up coveting those things that kind of pioneered an industry. So I'm super open and welcoming. If people want to get involved today or tomorrow, it's great. Either way, it's good for the industry. So I would say you could definitely launch with something small that matters to you and is contained as a collection. And then as things open up, as well as more down the road, there will be more opportunity, I think that there's going to be brand preferences that come up down the road as well, from producers who are known for making NFTs and start to develop relationships with audiences over time. There's a value in that in having a relationship with a fan base through different mediums over time that can't always be created overnight. So I think that there's something to be said, for that point, as well.

Andrew Wolverton 32:36

And how do you see this for even smaller organizations for nonprofit theaters, even for art galleries, museums? How are they able to get involved with this? Is it any different than the commercial world?

Eric Neal 32:50

No not really. I think it's a matter of creating something that you love or can stand by and want to say like, this represents me or my work, and I and I believe in it. And you can be cut into the royalties. And then you kind of have your go-to piece of commemorative memorabilia. Whether you're, you know, a musician in the orchestra, or you're a stage manager or you're an actor, there's there is a place for you here if you want to get involved. And I would encourage everybody to take a look and feel free to reach out. We're very open, about around engaging with every aspect in every stakeholder in the industry.

Andrew Wolverton 33:29

And how can our listeners engage more with you? How can they find you reach out to you?

Eric Neal 33:34

Yeah, for sure. So we have an email that kind of goes to our group at which is partnerships@thirdact.digital. You can check out thirdact.digital the website, there's all the contact fields there. As well as we're very active on social. So Twitter and Instagram, our handle is @_thirdact.

Andrew Wolverton 33:51

Well, thank you so much for, for being here for talking with us and and educating us a bit more on NFTs and the practicality that it has. And I think as you mentioned, it is definitely the future, and people should get on it now get that first addition piece because it will definitely be coveted.

Eric Neal 34:15

Yeah, I think I want to make sure as well. It's like it's not just the future. I think it's a part of the future. I think we're part of a really big wave. And I don't think we're the only way forward. But I think we're part of this new way forward. So I'm excited to be contributing to it looking forward to some of the things we have that we're building that are going to be released pretty soon and really grateful for the partners that we've had to date that believe in us. So thank you so much for having me on on the show here. This has been a lot of fun, and I hope it was helpful. I had a lot of fun.

Andrew Wolverton 34:45

Yeah, well, thank you.

Victoria Sprowls 34:48

Thanks for listening to the Tech in the Arts podcast. Let us know what you thought by visiting our website: amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @TechintheArts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. Thanks again for tuning in. If you found this episode, informative, educational, or inspirational - then send this to another arts aficionado in your life. We'll see you for the next episode.