In this month’s episode of Let’s Talk series, Alyssa and Grace discuss new projects in robotics and AI art and how it may affect the artists’ communities. In addition, they discuss articles that advocate STEAM education and how it may impact future career paths.

Alyssa: Hello, AMT-Lab listeners, and welcome to our sixth episode of the Let's Talk series, brought to you by The Arts Management and Technology Lab. My name is Alyssa and I am the Podcast Producer.

Grace: And I am Grace, the Technology and Innovative Content Manager.

Alyssa: Each month, we bring you trending stories and discussions with topics such as CRM, artificial intelligence, marketing, social media, inclusion, fundraising, and much more. Our goal is to exchange ideas, bring awareness, and stay on top of the trends. In this week's episode, we will discuss what's new in robotics and AI, plus a few news articles making a case for STEAM education.

Alyssa: Okay, so before we get started with our quick warm up article: a lot of the stuff that we're going to be talking about today are actually topics that we received from your suggestions. So, you know, if you're listening on amt-lab.org, or if you're connected on any of our social media channels, via our handle @techinthearts, you know, we love these suggestions. And so you know, please feel free to drop us a comment at any time and let us know what exactly you'd like to hear next, whether it's robotics, whether it's AI, anything along those topics, anything that's trending, anything that might be popping back up again, like, it's all, it's all open to us.

Grace: Yeah, we'd love to hear. We really enjoy hearing your guys's suggestions. It's great to know when we have listeners that find content that we've put out there that's that engaging that they want to comment back. So keep it coming.

Alyssa: Yeah. And the cool thing is that for these particular suggestions of robotics and AI, there actually has been quite a few new things popping up within not only the past month, but also within the past three to five years that will be discussing and tying it as well. Yeah.

Alyssa: But before we get started with that, there's one funny article that we did come across. This is actually in our Arts Management and Technology Lab class, where it was an article from the Washington Post by Brittany Shammas. And the title of it is “A man walks down the street with 99 phones in a wagon. Google Maps thought it was a traffic jam.”

Grace: (laughter) I love this one.

Alyssa: Oh my goodness, have you had a chance to read it at all?

Grace: I haven't gotten through super deep into it. Um, I got one of the kind of like cursory articles that came out when he first did it. As a performance art piece, I thought this was absolutely hilarious. But he he makes a really good point because the whole idea, he called it, Google Maps Hacks, is what he called his piece. And his whole idea was essentially to demonstrate the pervasive real-life influence of modern technology. So as funny as it was, I did kind of bring up a little bit of a, you know, I think in the back of my head where I was like, “Hmm, okay, like, yes, this is how we operate.” And I know I'm not the only one who when I'm driving to work, or I'm going somewhere, I look at Google Maps, and I'm like, “okay, what's the best route for me to take it?” I look. So it's really interesting that he essentially found that life hack, and was like, “Well, here you go. Like, this is something that you all rely on. And this is how we do it.” But it's also a performance art piece. I thought it was really very innovative, very interesting, also very pointed. I enjoyed it a lot.

Alyssa: Yeah, absolutely. So for those of our listeners out there: the gentleman who performed this particular piece, his name is Simon Weckert, and he is a Berlin-based artist. And you know, I thought that this was really cool too, because I had no idea how Google Maps like, work in terms of traffic jams. And to see that happening, it was not only very funny, but you know, also kind of educational in a way. And, you know, it certainly makes sense, like we always –what’s the term I’m looking for, like— we always opt into that location services. So, of course, with the way they do this, it makes sense. But, you know, it also brings up a question on how they can improve those maps so that it doesn't accidentally cause these traffic jams. Say, if there's a gathering going on, a lot of people happen to have these smartphones out. So, you know.

Grace: I'd be interested to see— I'm glad he did it in Berlin. Not that, you know, I'm sure Berlin drivers who were using Google Maps were probably potentially annoyed after the fact that was going on.

Alyssa: (laughter)

Grace: But I just, I imagine what would happen if you tried to do this experiment in New York City or San Francisco or LA, just even Miami, like some of these big high traffic areas like…what would happen? Just a thought, I'm not recommending that this experiment happen there.

Alyssa: (laughter)

Grace: Just knowing how the traffic levels are in those cities, specifically, it’d be kind of interesting to see what would happen if Google could find a way to subvert that somehow. Just a curiosity of mine.

Alyssa: Well, I think the article also had a point for one other user who was using Waze and who was reporting fake traffic jams.

Grace: Oh, yeah, Waze is a good way to get around that. People use that as well.

Alyssa: Yes, I actually am an avid Waze user myself, although sometimes like, it doesn't always take me the right way, like, which is totally fine. Sometimes. It's fine…

Alyssa: But you know, it was interesting, because this particular user, they actually reported fake traffic jams and crashes so that that way, all the rest of the users would see that, avoid that route as much as possible, and then he would have a smoother trip home.

Grace: Interesting…

Alyssa: Yeah.

Grace: So also…life hack.

Alyssa: Not quite, unfortunately. Waze was able to figure out like what exactly was going on because everybody kept downloading it. And the guy was kicked off within the next month.

Grace: Interesting.

Alyssa: So yeah, he was banned from Waze forever.

Grace: There you go. So deal with maps and performance art.

Alyssa: Oh, my goodness. Well, we'll see how the technology is built to potentially address these points. I'm interested to see where it goes.

Grace: Yeah.

Alyssa: All right. Well, let's get amped with AMT-Lab!

Alyssa: Alrighty. So in robotics, a new article from Euro News came out by Maeve Campbell, and is called “A robot just conducted a human symphony orchestra by waving its arms around.” The robot’s name is Alter 3. It is indeed the third out of the Alter series, and the piece itself was a quote-on-quote, “Android Opera” titled “Scary Beauty.” I think I read somewhere that the title is actually supposed to be more “Eerie Beauty,” but because of translation turned into “Scary Beauty.” But it was interesting to see this particular piece and some of the videos and some of the playback for it. Because yes, the robot, it was indeed waving its arms around and indeed had a pulse. And it was trying to convey that through its shoulders, its body, and its arms. And I'm using “it” because the creator actually described the Android is neither male nor female. And that is like purely for artistic purpose. Like even the face is completely gender neutral.

Grace: Interesting.

Alyssa: But yeah, it was a very difficult piece to compose and to pull off, especially with the robot.

Alyssa: So the composer's name is Keichiro Shibuya. He has also performed a Vocaloid opera before about in 2013. It was called “The End” ended and featured popular Vocaloid software voicebank called Hatsune Miku. And basically, some of the audience's reactions to it— of course, Hatsune Miku is a very popular Vocaloid, and the shows were very popular. But then somebody approached the composer and said, “wouldn't it be interesting if there was an Android piece, like an Android opera?” So that's where this idea came from.

Grace: Interesting. And when you say pulse, because that part… I'm just curious about trying to make that connection in my head. Pulse, meaning, sort of like a metronome-like thing that the AI Android has within? Like, how did that work? Because I'm thinking in terms of just managing an opera orchestra in general, you know, you have to have that rhythm. So how did that work in terms of managing that?

Alyssa: Well, it's actually a little disappointing, like, once you figure out the exact details of it. So the piece is actually only seven minutes long. It's called an opera, but Scary Beauty is only about like, seven, eight minutes long, like from some of the videos that are available online. There is a click track that the orchestra had available, although I'm told that some of the musicians actually took out the earphones with a click track because they tried to follow the robot after a while with the pulse. And near the front of the stage, the composer was there. He was playing piano, he was monitoring all of the android’s movements, and he was also conducting at a couple of parts too.

Grace: Interesting. So there's this sort of conglomeration of robot, human, artificial intelligence, all happening at the same time. That's really intriguing.

Alyssa: Basically, yes, the robot Alter 3 was mainly in charge of tempo, and— I'm sorry, not tempo, but dynamics and perhaps tone. And even at one point, like, the robot does turn around and starts to sing to the audience while still conducting.

Grace: Oh! Interesting.

Alyssa: (laughter) It's a great video, I highly recommend it. But, yeah, the interesting challenge that came with this particular project is trying to convey a pulse in a being that doesn't actually have a heartbeat.

Grace: Yeah.

Alyssa: Nor does it breathe.

Grace: It’s why I asked that question. Because it's like, how does that work? Because typically, when you're thinking a non-human entity, there's some sort of…again, I'll use the metronome-like sort of similarity there that there's got to be something. So it's interesting to hear that the robot was actually in charge of –not necessarily the tempo, exactly, because there was that click track—but the dynamics within that. Just, so many layers.

Alyssa: Oh, my goodness. Well, unfortunately, it's very highly likely, according to some of the news articles that I read, that a piece like this will not come into existence again because of the sheer level of difficulty in putting it all together.

Grace: Interesting.

Alyssa: Yeah, it took about five years, and Shibuya actually admitted that this project was massively difficult, and that he did consider dropping it multiple times.

Grace: And is this because of the programming or for just having all the moving parts kind of work together in the way that it needs to for a performance like this?

Alyssa: It would be the latter. It takes so much coordination to not only have that robot but also to compose that music, to have it be absolutely in sync with the robot’s voice and the robot’s arm movements, and to have every single musician be aligned with that as well.

Alyssa: But yeah, not only that, but when the audience reacted to it, they were captivated by it. And they were excited by it. But unfortunately, because it was a robot conducting, that human touch was lost.

Grace: And yeah, it makes you wonder in terms of performance and managing something like this. How much is the performance about the robot versus the music? And, and just knowing, you know, or at least questioning, what was the composer's idea behind having this project be put forth versus the people who attended those that interesting piece of, you know, thinking user experience, you know, how do you frame something like this? Do you mind if people are coming to see the robot? I'm assuming not in this case, because it was designed for the robot to do it. So the robot in this case, or Alter 3 is part of the performance itself. But that's just, I don't know, there's so many different interesting angles you can take. I don't know, my interest is piqued.

Alyssa: (laughter) I think maybe perhaps the idea behind it is to have the robot become its very own character that we see as another being with potentially another soul. I mean, there's an example of Ai-Da, the first ultra-realistic robot artists. She just recently opened up her first solo exhibition. And she can paint and draw without any human input at all. And her art style, like, it's not photorealistic, like rather it's up. It's abstract.

Grace: Yeah, she's another intriguing one that I've had my eye on. Yeah, she's coming back into the news recently.

Alyssa: Absolutely. Yeah.

Grace: It really makes you question the idea…not to go into a philosophical conversation, but you know, who can make art? And is it even who? Is it now what can make art, which goes into very deep conversation, which we won't get into today. But—

Alyssa: Actually, we might be getting into it today, believe it or not!

Grace: Oh! Okay!

Alyssa: Because, you know, this is going to go later into our AI discussion. But a question that's actually now popping up is copyright regarding artwork that's created by artificial intelligence and algorithms like…who exactly does that piece belong to?

Grace: Right. And that kind of ties into the whole issue around digitally-born art too. Like, who actually owns the work that's done? I'm thinking— who was it? It was the one of the campaign posters. Or was it a campaign poster? It was the very famous Obama poster that—

Alyssa: Oh yeah!

Grace: --an artist did that took a photo from someone in the media, I believe, and then like, redid it and like put his own twist on it. And that was that kind of brought up that conversation as well.

Alyssa: Hm, interesting.

Grace: And I'll be very curious to see how all that plays out specifically now. Because Ai-Da, she's been around for a while and her coming back in with this new solo exhibition…that might be some really interesting things for arts managers, just in terms of you know, if you're going to be putting on an exhibition like that, you know, what are the new kind of rules you have to follow with that. That'll be very interesting to see.

Alyssa: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, we can also take a look at Sofia the robot from Hanson robotics. I mean, like she truly, in my opinion, is becoming her very own person now. Like, she has her own credit card. She has her own Instagram.

Grace: Yeah.

Alyssa: Yeah, she has a national citizenship now. She is a citizen of Saudi Arabia as of 2017.

Grace: Yeah, I remember when that one hit the news too. Everybody was…that one exploded.

Alyssa: Yeah, you know, like, I guess in a lot of these cases where you see these robots and you see a character rather than a hunk of metal…

Grace: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: …then, you know, like that starts to open up a lot of questions for…I guess from a humanity standpoint. And, you know, like there are a lot of benefits like to having these robots around too. So when I think about robots and what exactly it means for the future of technology and humans…of course, a lot of people do have concerns like harm to the planet from energy and materials consumed. And of course, automation, our favorite topic. But you know, there are some benefits as well. And Sophia has actually mentioned a couple of these within an interview.

Grace: Oh, interesting.

Alyssa: Yeah! Basically, there are performing jobs that are otherwise too dangerous for humans to perform. Or there are jobs that need a much lower rate of error. And there are articles, like, there's a Time article actually where it states –and this is back from late 2019— that AI and the automation of jobs disproportionately affect women. And this is a warning from the World Economic Forum.

Alyssa: But there's another direct quote, actually, from the very first article regarding the robot conduct the human symphony from Euro News. Basically, they claim that this technology, this AI technology, will benefit us in the long run.

Grace: …it could. Maybe. I think I'm still kind of on the fence with it, I see that there are lots of really positive applications for it. I think in the arts, it's always going to be something or at least within the next five to 10 years, it's going to be something that still brings up a lot of questions, a lot of, you know, internal discord, you know, questioning the who, the what, you know, how does this work? How does this tie into our industry as a whole and like just understanding what that means for both artists and the individuals who manage these kinds of robots, you know, how does that tie into what we have going now, as we try and, you know, catch up in the technology race. So it should be interesting to see.

Alyssa: Yeah, especially considering that point. I'm interested to see how artists will react to that and create different pieces based around those questions.

Grace: Yeah! That can be interesting too.

Alyssa: Okay! So, speaking of particular projects and artificial intelligence, there was a very fascinating Time article that came out by Andrew R. Chow. This article was called “’There’s a Wide-Open Horizon of Possibility.’ Musicians Are Using AI to Create Otherwise Impossible New Songs.”

Grace: Hmm…

Alyssa: Yes. And the star of this article was Ash Koosha and his AI creation Yona. Yona is one of several auxuman or auxiliary humans. I'm actually not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly or not. But basically what the auxuman do is that they create lyrics and melodies based on preprogrammed algorithms that are already placed into them. Interestingly, the creator Ash Koosha, like, give the auxumans credit for the pieces rather than giving the credit to himself.

Grace: Huh.

Alyssa: So it's very much as if, like, the auxuman are living beings, and they are creating these lyrics and they are advertising themselves within YouTube or music festivals. And, you know, it's interesting how people view these as pieces of art, because not all of the lyrics sometimes makes sense. But in Yona’s case, there's some incredibly vulnerable lyrics that sometimes go out there. There is a couple of examples, such as in the Time article where one of his favorite lines from Yona in particular is “the one who loves you sings lonely songs with sad notes.”

Grace: Hm.

Alyssa: This was another article from Dazed Digital and this was an interview about Yona’s song “Oblivious.” And this was Yona answering herself actually! The song she described is that “if you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself.”

Grace: Interesting.

Alyssa: So not stuff that humans would usually say.

Grace: Or something that you would think would only come from a philosophical academic.

Alyssa: (laughter) Oh my goodness!

Grace: It’s very interesting. Although, one could argue that in some of the songs that we hear today that some of the lyrics don't make sense to them. So like, that's an interesting take on that, you know. How, when you're dealing with AI and they're being programmed by humans, how does that then translate to the AI creating something from that? That's, that's a very interesting thought process thereof, you know. If you're giving them the material, and then programming them was like, “Okay, now go for it.” To me, that kind of brings up the idea of like parent-child or like teacher-student. Like, you give them someone, or you give them materials that you want them to do something with, and you kind of give them guiding framework and say, go for it.

Alyssa: Oh, my goodness, I think we're about to like really heavily philosophical here because—

Grace: (laughter) I’m trying not to, I’m sorry.

Alyssa: (laughter) No, I'm into it! This is great because when we think about a kid, like, they’re their very own, like, blank slate as well, like they are, they are like still human, but they still like need to learn like so much about the world and they really need like those guiding principles. And the parents, the creators, are the ones that really install those into the child, or the robot, or the artificial intelligence in this case.

Grace: I don't know, for me, it just brings up this kind of sense of education, at least in similarities, term or similar terms…there's a parallel there that's kind of intriguing, and I'm just thinking for arts managers, you know, is there something we could learn from these processes of how to, I don't know, altered some teaching methods, things that I mean, that's taking it way out of the scope of this conversation.

Alyssa: (laughter)

Grace: But that's, that's where my mind is going. So I'm curious. Let's see what the arts do with things like that. Kind of what we were talking about before with Alter 3 and how that can influence music and things like that.

Alyssa: Absolutely, yeah. And you know, there's tons of other AI projects out there that really we can go into such incredible detail about. But you know, something that I worry about, especially I'm going to bring up automation once again. I do worry that some of this new tech, like, may replace musicians over time. I think this was one concern that Grimes had brought up within the beginning of this Time article. But there –and keep in mind, like within her interview, there's a lot of backlash for her comments. But there's another direct quote in particular that there are many musicians who feel that “the onset of AI won't end human art, but spark a new golden era of creativity.”

Grace: Okay.

Alyssa: I think when it comes to a couple of these other examples, however, there was one in particular where it was…give me one second to find it. It was Amper in particular that was mentioned within this article too. This is a program that was created by composers Drew Silverstein, Sam Estes, and Michael Hobe. And basically, whenever these composers who receive these requests for simple background music, whether it's for media like TV, video games, the team would always have to decline it just simply because they did not have the time when they were receiving so many other requests. So they created Amper which is an AI program where basically, they just tell the program exactly what they want, like whether it has to do with tone, tempo, dynamics, and then the piece for that simple background piece is completed in minutes. And there is another format coming out where, for Amper, where it's not just musicians who can make this type of music, but it's anybody who can make this type of music. And for me, I worry a little bit about that. Because what if people turn to Amber instead of turning to a composer, like, who needs to start work and wants to go for the technology instead and just create it by themselves?

Grace: That's a real concern. I think it's a very valid point. Um, I think that's, I don't know how much if that's come up so much in the, like, global talk about stuff like this. But I think for arts managers, that's something to definitely keep in mind, you know, as we move forward, you know, whether you're in marketing or you're in communications, or you're in development, you know, do you if you're looking for something like this, or even if you're, you know, a video game developer, and you're looking for the kind of music that will fit with what you've created, you know, do you choose to go to something like Amper? Or do you choose to go to someone who's made of flesh and blood? You know, I mean, that's all dependent on what your needs are, you know, how you feel about that. I mean, that's a big ethical conundrum, too, I think.

Grace: And, you know, I, obviously with ethics, there is no, you know, one single answer to this. It's, there's a lot of components that come into that. I think that also ties into some of the things that kind of come up with an AI and robotics such as you know, as consumers, like how much do we need to be aware of the fact that like things can be mistaken for reality, and, you know, are these projects these kinds of new available technology starting to blur the line? You may realize that I'm kind of referencing here what's known as the uncanny valley.

Alyssa: Yes. (laughter)

Grace: For our listeners who may not be aware, the uncanny valley is when robotics, AI, animation or any other computer-generated program gets so close to resembling reality, that the line becomes really questionable. It's uncanny –this is kind of hard to explain— like a little bit of deep seated, deep rooted, just sense of uncertainty, discomfort, that kind of thing. And I think you make a really good point when you're bringing up you know, do you go to something like Amper versus a human? Does that reach into that uncanny valley? A lot of times, the uncanny valley is typically thought of in terms of things like Sophia or Ai-Da, you know, where that looks like a human, but it's not. But I think we can also make the argument that the uncanny valley does kind of translate into how we approach as arts managers, you know, using these kinds of technology, what does that mean for us? What does that mean for our consumers? What does that mean for the artists we work with? Or, you know, all sorts of things. So I think that's a really interesting thing for you to bring up.

Alyssa: Yeah, and you make an absolutely good point there. Perhaps when arts managers or even somebody who has their own gallery, takes a look at the stuff…maybe I shouldn't even say gallery. Like, you know, like maybe when arts managers or even artists out there see these types of projects out there. Perhaps there's a notion that the appeal behind it is that it's very new and it's unexplored and this is a chance to really like, get into the subject and play around.

Alyssa: For those blurred lines, there is a quote from the Time article once again, and this is coming from Oleg Stavitsky, the CEO and co-founder of generative music program Endel. He says that “AI music is simply not good enough to create a song that you will listen to and be like, you know, ‘I would rather listen to this than Drake.’” But you know, like, perhaps AI music is still in its very early stages. So it might be getting to that point where somebody might mistake it for a song that's written by human.

Grace: Right. Which is why I kind of brought up the uncanny valley. We talk a lot about that particular theory and that kind of concept visually. But I'm wondering if it's now starting to translate into the audio, that we're hearing that the, you know, that kind of space that hasn't really…it's harder to discuss, I think, at least in terms of the uncanny valley because of the very nature of what AI is doing. A lot of it's been very front facing, it's very visual, tangible, that kind of thing. I don't know if there's a part of questions because it does bring up this idea of how much does the human element have to be in something that's artistic for it to not be something that kind of crosses the line that Stavitsky was talking about. I'd be curious to hear what our listeners think!

Alyssa: (laughter)

Grace: Because obviously, this is a very complex conversation.

Alyssa: It really is, yeah!

Grace: We'd love to hear if you guys have opinions on, you know, the use of AI or instances like that, where if you've used any of these technologies, you know, what the process you thought about it, you know. Would you use something like this versus a living artist in that sense?

Alyssa: You know, I actually just thought of one really great example, now that you brought that up, and that is GarageBand.

Grace: Oh, that is true.

Alyssa: Yeah!

Grace: I completely forgot!

Alyssa: (laughter) Yeah, where they have like the clips that you can pull from and then it's so easy to piece together your very simple song from that. But that's been around for quite a few number of years. And while it has been used in some projects, I don't think it's ever been using a very major fashion or nor has said—

Grace: Not that I know of. It's possible, but I'm not. I don't have my finger on the pulse on that one.

Alyssa: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I guess, to finish off this topic, if there was anything I say that I would suggest, like for arts managers to do for, like, to prevent uncanny valley from happening? Well, I don't know there is really a way that you can—

Grace: I’m not sure you can. I think it's something that you just have to think about and really consider, in least in terms of AI and that kind of thing. If it's something that's going to make that makes sense for you to use and what the audience reaction is going to be.

Alyssa: Yeah, but at the very least, perhaps it needs to be 100% clear what exactly the technology is that's being used and how that's coming across and who to properly give credit to.

Grace: Absolutely.

Alyssa: Okay, so now we're going to move on to our final topic, the non-traditional education path known as STEAM, or STEM, or STREAM, depending on your preferred educational methods.

Grace: (laughter)

Alyssa: So, you know, it's interesting like there's been a lot of different arguments for STEM versus STEAM that's coming up.

Grace: Right.

Alyssa: So there's one article for example by Doug Bonderud of Ed Tech Magazine, and this is an article called “Technology Helps Schools Answer the ‘Why’ of STEAM Learning,” where they bring up examples of different maker spaces where kids can really get in there and, say, use 3D printers to make hydraulic claws to address any issues with the community for trash pickup. And of course, LEGO Education is becoming a really big case where offers that simple transition from theoretical concepts to practical instruction, according to the article.

Grace: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: The idea behind it, from what I understand, is that with these educational spaces, it's supposed to pave the way for these new career paths that are popping up in IT that requires these technical skills, but also really requires these soft skills such as problem solving, working with other people, and that creative spirit. Let's see, there's actually, this is actually the definition for a term that's been coined called New Collar workers. But, so but the current argument that's out there right now is that STEM education actually accomplishes that creative spirit just fine. And it doesn't necessarily need the additional A, like, the additional Arts within education in order to get that creativity.

Grace: (pause)

Alyssa: I think I see some heavy opinions forming!

Grace: (laughter) I can I understand potentially where they're coming from in that particular sense that STEM already has the sense of problem solving and creativity, you know, thinking, if you're working with any sort of engineering, you know, that's a lot of puzzles that you got to figure out, how do things work. And obviously, it's much more complicated than that. But I don't know, I think that there's a part of me—Now granted, I'm very biased because I'm such an advocate for STEAM.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Grace: I will acknowledge that. But I think that while there is this sense of problem solving and creativity that gets incorporated within STEM, adding that additional component takes it that much further. There is something that I personally believe you cannot…it can't be substituted with anything else. I will always firmly and truly believe that. I think that it just opens up a lot of different considerations that you might not have in just the STEM model. I'm sure that there are a lot of people who disagree with that. Clearly there are. That's just my personal opinion. I think that there's definitely attributes to both are great, but I personally think that that additional component could just take things that much further.

Alyssa: Totally. And there are a couple of situations where experiments have been performed to, like, for STEM education, but adding that additional Arts component to it. This is from a Forbes article titled “When STEM becomes STEAM, we can change the game,” and this is by Talia Milgrom-Elcott.

Alyssa: There was an experiment that was performed where Phoenix Symphony visited STEM students for a program called Mind Over Music. And basically the idea behind it was to help these kids integrate music into their STEM classes. So this was an experiment that was done with a control group that did not receive the Mind Over Music class versus the kids that did. And the studies showed that these kids who did participate in Mind Over Music scored significantly higher in science and math and their control curve counterparts did.

Alyssa: And there's another quote within this article too from Dr. Jenny Nash, the Head of the Education Solutions Design Team at LEGO Education, where she quotes: “With STEAM, students naturally see the endless possibilities and intersection points as they choose, or even create, their own career paths.”

Grace: I fully will put my support behind that. (laughter)

Alyssa: (laughter)

Grace: I think that that makes a good point that it just helps. I don't know if it shifts your perception or if it just adds something to it. It's hard to tell as someone who's been inundated in arts since I was very, very small, but I do, I think that that points out a really good, you know, indication that the arts just cannot be substituted, when it comes to looking at problem solving, creativity, you know, finding these potentially unthought-of solutions or just thinking about things in a different way.

Grcae: That actually makes me think of in terms of because I was talking engineering before. Just music, thinking tempo, rhythm, when you're dealing with something that's got hydraulics to it, there's a tempo, a rhythm, to how that machine has to work. And if you're musically minded, you might be able to pick up on something that someone else can't hear or, you know, maybe there's some sort of pacing that a machine absolutely needs and you just, it takes that extra step of just being like, you know, being able to advocate for, hey, I think you know, this particular metric needs to change or something. Now, I am not an engineer by any means.

Alyssa: (laughter)

Grace: But, you know, just under having that understanding of just that extra level. I mean, that could be…I'd be interested to hear what some people who maybe were in STEM and then were introduced to STEAM. If there's anyone out there, who's made that jump, you know, what were your thoughts with that? Or who's even gone from STEAM to STEM, you know, the opposite side of the conversation, you know, how do you feel about that?

Alyssa: Oh, yeah, I would love to hear the kids’ perspective on it actually, like the students who have, like, participated in STEM classes. And then, like, participated in STEAM classes and see, like, if there is a missing hole of an education that's been filled by adding that additional arts component.

Grace: Right.

Alyssa: So let me ask you this question, because you seem to be very well versed on this subject.

Grace: (laughter) Oh, no.

Alyssa: All things considered, why wouldn't a school want to go for a STEAM curriculum? What would make them choose STEM instead?

Grace: Well, I think there's a lot of different factors to that. The one thing that pops instantly into my mind is, depending on the state law or state policies surrounding education, as well as the, you know, state education budget that they've been given. Now, this is thinking public versus private schools.

Alyssa: Of course, yeah.

Grace: There could be some limitations to what they're able to do in terms of implementing the arts within their education plan of STEAM versus STEM. So that's the one that's one big limitation that I've heard of at least and have seen in my own experience, that sometimes taking that extra jump that…seeing that jump in the budget, or you know, the thought of, well, we need X teachers to be able to implement this Well, that's kind of scary for certain boards. And there's also this deficiency that happens on school boards. I'm thinking at the county level, not necessarily government.

Grace: But if you don't have someone who's been experienced in or who's experienced STEAM in their own education or seen it with their own children, that may be a bit of a leap for them to take, you know, if they've seen STEM work, they're going to be an advocate for STEM. It's like with anything else, if you've seen something and you know it works, you're going to advocate for the thing you know. You don't know what you don't know.

Alyssa: Of course, yeah.

Grace: And that's the really hard part about this, especially when advocating for arts policies and education. I think that there's this hurdle we have to kind of get over of, you know, individuals not knowing what they don't know, if you haven't been exposed to it. It's really hard to make that jump.

Alyssa: Yeah. And I'm thinking back to a previous episode that you did, when talking about board buy-in for a program like STEAM. And this is with your interview with Aubrey Bergauer that Michaela also participated in, where if we want that board buy-in to advocate for a STEAM curriculum, like then you need that data like to back it up or you need that absolute proof that it does work and it's going to be feasible.

Grace: And I think that's just advocates even harder for us as arts managers and just as an industry as a whole to really figure out what can we track? What can we quantify. Not that you want to quantify everything, because yes, there are a lot of qualitative measures that are just as important as the quantitative ones. But I think in terms of STEAM vs. STEM, this is where that's really going to hit hard, and you need that data.

Grace: Now, I know that STEAM has been around for, you know, a number of years, I think it's starting to –pardon the pun— pick up STEAM.

Alyssa: Ah! Ha ha!

Grace: And people who are advocating for these policies and education. But just going back to your earlier question, I think that that's the biggest part about when you're trying to advocate for one over the other, if you can implement STEM versus STEAM easier. You know, that's a hard bargain to get someone to agree to, if they're not used to it.

Alyssa: Absolutely. You know, at the end of the day, and you know, as Milgram-Elcott, like, pointed out in the Forbes article, you know, I think the interesting bit like that I picked up the most like from these particular articles is that if the kids, like, aren't engaged in the learning, whether it's STEAM, whether it's STEM, whether it's any other sort of education that's really out there right now, any sort of curriculums, like…if they don't pick up on that, then they end up losing, and we all end up losing as they go into these careers.

Grace: I have only agreed with that one. I think that's one thing. And just to finish my last point on STEM versus STEAM, but if you're going to implement a STEM education plan, that doesn't mean the arts can't exist. I think a lot of people see STEM versus STEAM and like, “oh, one has arts and one doesn't.” And I think that's one reason why maybe some STEM advocates are like, “well, the arts exist, it may just not be part of the STEM plan.” Well, yeah, like I was very lucky to go to a high school that was not necessarily a STEM school. It is very great school. But there were wonderful arts teachers there who, you know, I had that as an elective, and I can take that I can choose to do that outside of the general STEM education. So that's just, I think that if as long as it exists somewhere, we win.

Alyssa: Perhaps, yeah. And another point that came up in my research actually is that just because arts may not be part of a STEM curriculum, like, doesn't necessarily mean that it's not still like just as important as all the other stuff.

Grace: Absolutely.

Alyssa: Coming up on the AMT-Lab website:

First up, we have contributor Paengsuda Panyatham's article titled “Deepfakes in the Entertainment Industry.” This article will explain what a deepfake is, what the potential limitations of deepfakes are, and how they can be beneficial via Generative Adversarial Networks.

Next, we'll have contributor Shannon Kirk's article on CGI and Motion Capture. This article will go into these details of computer-generated imagery and motion capture, plus holograms, and it'll bring up examples such as such Geppetto system, uncanny valley, and deepfakes.

 And finally, our own Technology and Innovative Content Manager, Grace Puckett, will released her article on a new way to use the Mindbody management software to support an arts organization. This case study will discuss Mindbody’s tools, such as marketing, reports, and staff resources, so that Mindbody can work for your institution rather than against it.

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Thanks for listening to the Arts Management and Technology Lab podcast series. You can read more on the intersection between the arts and technology at www.amt-lab.org. Or you can listen to more interviews and discussions in our podcast series on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or Stitcher. Thank you for joining us.

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Audio transcription for AMT Lab’s Podcast Series is supported by Otter.ai.