This month in Let’s Talk: Tech In the Arts, Alyssa and Grace discuss how blockchain can be used in the music streaming industry, marketing and the trending app Tik Tok, and the Yondr pouch for restricting cell phone use during performances.

[Intro music]

Alyssa: Hello, and welcome to our third episode of our Let's Talk: Tech In The Arts monthly series with the Arts Management and Technology Lab. My name is Alyssa and I am the Podcast Producer.

Grace: And my name is Grace, the Technology and Innovative Content Manager.

Alyssa: Each month we bring you your trending stories and discussions with topics such as CRM, artificial intelligence, marketing, social media, inclusion, fundraising, and much more. Our goal is to exchange ideas, bring awareness, and stay on top of the trends. In this episode, we talk about blockchain and music streaming, marketing and the app Tik Tok, and the Yondr pouch for restricting cell phone use during performances.

[Musical interlude]

Alyssa: Okay, Grace. Well, it's that time of the year again.

Grace: Yes, it is! Seems like it comes faster every year. I don't know what it is. [laughter] I feel like I hit September, I blink and next thing I know, it's November, December.

Alyssa: My goodness, yeah, it just passes by like, especially if you have a lot of gifts that you need to buy for everybody that during the holiday season, and that's the deadline just approaches,

Grace: The advertisements have been constantly hitting. I don't think-, it's starting to hit that point where I think every time I look around, I'm like, Oh, right, I was looking at that, I was looking at that. Okay, cool - making mental notes for my own list and for everyone else too.

Alyssa: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Well, let me ask you actually, is there any technology that you're excited to receive as a holiday gift this year?

Grace: Well, to be honest, there is one, there's one in particular. And it's not, it's not a new technology, per se, it's a new iteration. It was just released in October, towards the end of October. Apple has come out with what they're calling AirPods Pro. It's very similar to the original iteration of the AirPods; however, the difference here is that these have a soft squishy end as part of the earbud! And I don't know if any of our listeners experience this as well, I myself am quite picky when it comes to my headphones when I'm using-, uh, whether it's wireless or not, the hard plastic ends just really hurt. They don't quite fit my ears and the squishy ends just really seem to make that a much more comfortable experience. And what's interesting is Apple with the AirPods Pro, um, they've added in noise cancellation and sound immersion. So, similar to what we're seeing happening with your bigger headsets – I’m thinking kind of like the Beats and a couple different Bose headsets that, they have that have been using that from the gaming side as well. They've added this in as like an extra new feature into the, the wireless personal headphones.

Alyssa: That's cool. Yeah, you know, whenever I think about earbuds like those, like I always run into that problem where that they're just like, I can't wear a lot of earphones.

Grace: Yeah

Alyssa: Because they're just way too big for my ears and when they consider like those small cups at the very end, like that's a really huge factor in me, like purchasing earbuds or not.

Grace: Yeah, it's fun-, every time, because I know when, specifically for Apple and iPhones, when you get a new phone, they always give you a new, uh new, like headset, like new earbuds. And half the time I'm like, I’m not even going to use these! [laughter] I mean, now with how they've structured things, it's a little bit harder to use other brands, but I'm really excited that they've done this. So, I'm crossing my fingers, toes, you know. Hoping that I-, that happens in my stocking this year. [laughter] We'll see what happens.

Alyssa: Oh, my goodness, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, for me, I actually put Google Cardboard on my holiday list this year. I did a lot of research last year on VR, especially in the education space. When I was writing my holiday wish list this year, I realized that I don't actually own any of the VR pieces that I mentioned like that, or that I found within my research. So, I figured like, this would be a really good chance to like, get into it. And I do have Oculus Quest, like somewhere in my wish list too, but I decided to not include it this year. Because the big thing about Google Cardboard, it's only like $25, whereas the Oculus Quest is about $400 for the entire package. So, you know, I figured it'd be like a good way to get into that.

Grace: Yeah! And the Google Cardboard is still a really neat piece of tech. I mean, I think the, it's name sometimes gives it a little bit of people when they hear cardboard, they get a little hesitant because they're like, oh, Google, cardboard, how do those two mix together? But it's actually it's a really neat piece of text. I hope you get that one. I'm crossing my fingers for you.

Alyssa: Hey, crossing my fingers for you. [laughter] And just as a quick disclaimer, we are not sponsored by Apple or Google in anyway.

Grace: No, we're-, This is our holiday wish list and if you happen to be interested in any of these kinds of tech, maybe you'll add similar kinds of technology to your wish list.

Alyssa: Hey hey, there you go. All right, well, let’s get amped with AMT Lab!

Grace: So, we're going to kick off this episode by talking about blockchain, which has been on an unending trend for years as a highly secure encrypted data ledger. Recently, we've seen blockchain popping up within music streaming services such as Flat.FM, which streams electronic music. For many of the streaming artists, this has been a major breakthrough in receiving their share of streaming revenue, where previously there would need to be several accounting middlemen like Spotify to securely pass revenue from the stream platform to each artist. This not only causes more of a chance of error, but middlemen take a portion of the revenue. With a blockchain; however, the revenue instead is passed directly from fan to artist, and with a higher level of security than before. This is all in addition to blockchain’s higher transparency, faster speeds, and improved traceability. It sounds as if this is the ideal solution for artists to be paid more of their fair share. Unfortunately, blockchain’s greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. Once something like a song is embedded within the chain, it is very difficult to adjust it or remove it even if there was a one letter mistake within the title. Regardless of that mistake, a blockchain will continue forward with its transaction to pay artists their share. With this in mind, our discussion today is based on this major problem: when a song uploaded onto the blockchain is pirated or contains copyrighted, covered material. An article by Dani Deahl on The Verge mentions one streaming startup called Audius. Audius was intended to be the rival of SoundCloud, Mixcloud and YouTube where music makers can upload songs at no cost and still receive recommendations for listening. The big appeal to audience is that it's free for users to upload content and Audius promises not to take content down nor censor it. Currently, artists cannot make a profit off of the stream through Audius, but there are plans in 2020 to start a subscription service, where 90% of revenue would go to artists. However, Deahl’s article notes that a large portion of material currently uploaded to Audius by users violates copyright law, including remixes or even entire songs from other famous artists. So, blockchains have the potential to work out for big streaming corporations and on the smaller scale for Flat.FM it appears to be working. But for copyright law and companies like Audius using a blockchain has become a big concern. So, what could we possibly do about this?

Alyssa: That by itself is a very loaded question and there are a couple of small companies out there that are addressing this right now. So, within an article that Sam Daley on Built In mentions, um there are, there are companies like Bitsong, MusicLife, which is actually dedicated to limiting piracy, while initially giving artists 100% of the share of a song’s income. There's also eMusic and Mycelia. These are all streaming services that also utilize the blockchain, um, and it's not as if like large companies like, cannot adopt this too. There are a lot of considerations that need to be made for larger companies. But companies like Sony, Spotify, SoundCloud, Red Bull Media, Netflix, they're all part of-, they're all members of the Open Music Initiative, or OMI, where they're starting to identify music rights holders, and this is to assist in fair royalty payment. And Spotify has actually acquired Media Chain, which is a peer-

Grace: Oh, that’s interesting.

Alyssa: Yeah, and that's a peer to peer blockchain database and that is supposed to help solve royalty payment and right holders issues and it's also supposed to organize open source information and ensure artists are paired are paid fairly. So, there are some steps within other companies and within Spotify to help take care of this.

Grace: Right, because I know that with Spotify, it's been an issue for many years that be percentage of the payment that-, or the royalty fees that an artist gets, is a very tiny percentage. And I know that that has been a reason that several artists have actually decided to either no longer put music on to Spotify, pull their music off or just not use it entirely. Um, I think one of the things we note-, we were looking at, we noticed that Clem Chambers on Forbes mentioned that if an artist wanted to make $11 an hour from Spotify as an independent artist with no record label, you would need to have 650,000 streams a month. That equates to 12 albums total on Spotify, that is a massive amount of streams a massive amount of music that you have to get to get a very small percentage. So maybe blockchain, potentially, could assist in making this a much easier, much more fair and equitable process.

Alyssa: Well, the thing that I need to mention about Clem Chambers’ article on Forbes is that this is something from his own personal experience. [inaudible] Oh, yes, his single streams earned him about zero point 25 cents per listen and even then, like that number, like doesn't sound relatively too bad, it's like a quarter of a cent. But if you're looking at a chart with a competitor's analysis on what the payout is to artists, that's, like that number actually looks like 0.0025 payments like per stream. So that's something to keep in mind. You know, like when it comes to the current copyright issue that Audius is experiencing right now: So, the first thing to note is that every song has two copyrights attached to it. That's one for the composition and then another for the recording that takes place. And as of this date and recording, Audius does not have a Content ID system to catch these potential infringements taking place and a formal process right now is definitely in the works. But otherwise, like all cases of these copyright infringes, infringements, like go to the user who made and posted the content. And therefore, like most of these streams right now, um, any lawsuits or any cases of infringement would go directly to the user. I don't know if this would let Audius off the hook, however, since they are the ones that enables this copyright infringement to take place, but the payouts are not going to the, to the artist quite yet and I believe that once they do have a formal process in the works like, that should be, like sometime before their payments go out to some of the artists that are posting music on there.

Grace: And just since we're talking about blockchain and the difficulties that they're still that still exists within that, what about platforms such as Band Camp and Patreon? I know that those are non-blockchain ways to kind of do things, but what-, what is the comparison between some, a place like Audius that's backed by blockchain versus Bandcamp and Patreon?

Alyssa: There actually is a very large difference between the two of them. The thing about Bandcamp and Patreon is that they are deliberately for-, like they are deliberately made for fans to go into website and support their favorite artists. But they may receive exclusive content that comes with any donations that they make to their favorite artists. But it's not necessarily the same as a payout service or blockchain, that there's no royalty assignments that comes from Bandcamp on Patreon. But that being said, Daley does mention on his Built In website once again, that there is a company called Bitsong, which incorporates both blockchain payments and a way for, for listeners to donate and/or purchase music all on one platform. The big thing is that like blockchain royalty payments and optional donations are very separate, but some of the transactions can be made via a blockchain so that the money is safely and quickly transferred from fan to artist.

Grace: Oh, that's so interesting, because I know that at least with the streaming, the payment itself is, has always been kind of a bit of tension. And in addition to having copyrighted material, I know that both of those are big things that blockchain fans are definitely hoping that they can help to solve at least.

Alyssa: Oh yeah, it's developing, it's growing, it's going to take a lot of time for Audius or other companies to start addressing these copyright issues, but a plan for them is on their way. If I can take a moment to actually make one quick prediction: when considering competing music, streaming services like Spotify, I predict that we're going to see a lot more of these smaller companies like Audius pop up and these are going to serve as platforms to stream indie artists, while paying them a lot more of their fair share. And those are starting-, and those may start to become a lot more popular than Spotify or YouTube or any of the much larger streaming services.

Grace: Oh! I will-, I look forward to see whether or not your prediction’s actually going, how that pans out and see if that comes true or not.

Alyssa: It really it really depends on what artists people are interested in listening more to or if they decide to pursue a specific genre.

Grace: We'll see!

Alyssa: Yeah!

Grace: Well listeners, if you want to read more on how exactly blockchain works, contributors, Santiago Martinez and Jenee Iyer have numerous articles on blockchain and how to implement it in arts management on AMT Lab’s website. All of these articles can be found at www.amt-lab.org.

Alyssa: For our next topic, we're going to make an interesting statement: Tik Tok may become the next big thing in marketing.

Grace: Oh, this is interesting. [laughter]

Alyssa: I knew you'll get a kick out of this. According to David Krupp of Mumbrella, while Tick Tock is mainly being used by content creators, brands are beginning to recognize its potential for influencing. For those who aren't familiar with the app Tik Tok, originally called musical.ly, is similar to the beloved app Vine. Users upload short videos that lasts from 15 to 30 seconds and these videos can be shared with friends and followers around the world. What makes Tik Tok different from its other social media competitors is its massive audio library that users can place in their videos. Most users lip sync or dance along to the clips available in this audio library, but others use it in official challenges where users find creative ways to complete assigned tasks such as kicking a bottle cap off of a bottle of water, or making a massive choir out of gummy bears.

Grace: Oh, that’s interesting, I haven't seen that one yet! I’ve seen the bottle cap one because they, in the dance world that took by storm because a bunch of people were calling it the pirouette challenge, or something like that, and they were trying to knock it off with, like, the end of a pointe shoe.

Alyssa: Very interesting. Okay, gotcha. So, the gummy bear one, that is the Adele challenge. And basically, a lot of folks place gummy bears like around the table around the floor, but they're all in a choir formation and they’re singing along to Adele’s “Someone Like You”.

Grace: Oh cute!

Alyssa: It's cute. I actually find a lot of amusement out of that, plus the dancing cats to Mr. Sandman that that holds a special place in my heart. [laughter] Now anyway, Josh Viner published an article on Medium on how to develop a Tik Tok marketing strategy and he brings up quite a few examples of successful Tik Tok trends from brands, artists and celebrities. For example, the clothing company Guess generated 37.4 million views from videos with the hashtag #InMyDenim, and dance and music producer and DJ Alan Walker kicked off an environmental challenge with the hashtag #DifferentWorld that not only generated 105.9 million views, but also encouraged users to pick up litter. And around the world, the Punjabi singer Sukhe released a song called “Coka” and advertised it via tik tok to generate a total of 300 10 million views on his music video.

Okay, so let me throw this question at you. [laughter] If you are ready!

Grace: Oh, I'm ready, go for it.

Alyssa: Do you see Tik Tok making its way into arts management marketing?

Grace: If you had asked me that question, oh, [laughter] a couple years ago-, because to be honest, actually, I did not realize until we were talking about this a little bit beforehand that Tik Tok is actually what was known as musically, which is the musical dot ly. I'm-, actually there was a child that I was babysitting for, oh, way back when, who was using this app, and I was like, “what is this new thing? I'm feeling my age and I am not that old!” Um, If you had asked me whether or not Tik Tok was going to be used for marketing a couple months ago, I think I would have laughed at you? But now, with the more that I've seen how it's been used, how pervasive it is, and how many people it actually reaches - I think it's possible.

Alyssa: Oh, absolutely, because in the same David Krupp Mumbrella article, Tik Tok is the fastest growing social media platform and it is mostly used by Generation Z, so...

Grace: Which, if we're talking audience development-

Alyssa: Oh, absolutely

Grace: -they are one of the biggest groups that arts manage-, arts managers in any sector of the fields are definitely targeting this group trying to get them to come in and see, you know, be a part of our audience and develop them as the next, next thing following our generation.

Alyssa: Absolutely, yeah. So, yeah, I was taking some time to explore the Josh Viner Medium article and see a lot of where the strategy comes in for creating a Tik Tok marketing strategy and some of the things that he brings up within the article, of course the challenges and the hashtag campaigns, like I mentioned before, you can also include duets, influencers. Part of if you want to create a challenge, then you have to give somebody a time restraint because that makes it more like, Oh, you have to hurry like, you have to do this before it's gone.

Grace: Right, that sense of urgency.

Alyssa: Yeah. And there's really a sense of community that does come with the app. So, I have to agree with you on your answer. Like, I think it certainly can be done, like you can use Tik Tok for arts management marketing. I guess the big thing is that you have to be careful in the sense that you need to understand how Tik Tok works and what the similarities, like, how the humor or the sense of creativity does come into that.

Grace: Yeah, I think the question is it not so much can Tik Tok be used, it's how.

Alyssa: Yeah!

Grace: And that's, that's a big question because, because of who you're reaching, um, I think one of the biggest concerns that arts managers are going to have to be aware of when using Tik Tok is because of how much it's used by Gen Z, we have to remember that some of these Gen Z users may be as young as nine. So, that gets into a whole lot of interesting issues. Um, so, I think you're right in saying that, really understanding how Tik Tok is being used, what the community does with it that uses Tik Tok, that's going to be really crucial. And if an arts organization can figure that out, that could be really interesting to see how that works and if it does actually work in a positive manner. Um, just because we've seen, and I think as technology has grown within our society as a whole and how integral it's really becoming, I mean, how many people do you know that are walking down the street with a phone in their hand or in the pocket or in their bag, like, there's a vast majority of the population has some sort of personal device on which they can use this. And what's interesting too, is my exposure to Tik Tok hasn't come from the app specifically - it's come from Instagram.

Alyssa: Really?

Grace: Yes! So, a lot of people – and I don't know how you do this, this is showing some of my weird technical deficiencies that I have is, when it comes to social media – a lot of Tik Tok videos that I have seen have actually been posted on Instagram from there. So, there's some sort of connection there and it's a broader audience in that sense that they're reaching not only the GenZers who are using Tik Tok, and maybe those who are also millennials who use Tik Tok as well who are in that space, but you have anyone who's on Instagram period, which is a much larger age range nowadays than it used to be. So, I think that that's a really interesting thing that there's some sort of collaborative use, and maybe collaborative is the wrong word to use here, but a way to kind of conglomerate a couple different platforms in a way to access what you already have, plus this new, interesting 15 to 30 second reiteration of Vine.

Alyssa: Yeah, actually, like I've seen quite a few Tik Tok videos appear on Facebook as well, Twitter and even Pinterest believe it or not.

Grace: I wouldn't have thought that but that actually makes a lot of sense.

Alyssa: Absolutely. So yeah, you know, like, I think believe it or not, I may actually have a hack for Tick Tock.

Grace: Oooh, okay do tell, do tell!

Alyssa: Well, this is if you really want to get into it and learn exactly, like, how it works and how to make your Tik Tok marketing strategy a lot more effective. So, I was able to figure out that Tik Tok is very similar to theater – and this is from an article that's from Taylor Lorenz in New York Times – there are high school Tik Tok clubs are actually being formed right now.

Grace: Oh!

Alyssa: The one example that they bring up is the West Orange High School Tik Tok club and the teachers actual-, actually like love this quite a bit because there's very much a high sense of teamwork and camaraderie that's taking place. But within the article, Lorenz does equate these clubs that, and they are very similar. to theater clubs, believe it or not.

Grace: Oh, so maybe the jump isn't as big as some people might think it would be in terms of-, not that, you know, those of us who maybe use social media a lot would think it would be too big of a jump, but that that connection to the arts is actually maybe even more inherent than, than it first appears.

Alyssa: Oh, without a doubt, like there's the song aspect behind it, there's the dance aspect, there's the acting aspect behind it. But I think most importantly, like create-, like Tik Tok is meant to be an app for creative expression and who else is a master in creative expression than the arts!

Grace: Right?! And I think too, we've seen over the past couple years how institutions have had to get creative, and whether it's their marketing or programming, that kind of thing. So, I think this is something that we might need to keep an eye on, and just see what people do with it because it may take a little bit of trial and error to figure out, you know, what's the best way to do it. And of course, as we know, within the arts, there is no silver bullet with anything that we do. So, I'm curious to see who picks this up first.

Alyssa: Absolutely. And if any listeners happen to know of any arts organizations that do happen to use Tik Tok as part of their strategy, we’d love to see a couple.

Grace: Yes, please comment! I would love to hear how they're using that.

Alyssa: [laughter] Me too!

Grace: Alright, so for our final topic of the day, we're going to talk about Yondr. That is Y O N D R, the pouch that prevents users from accessing their phones. So, we've heard of cases before where artists on stage have been upset with audience members for taking out their phones and either texting during the performance and, and/or using it to record the performance. For example, Laurie Niles on violinist.com reports that on September 28 of this year, 2019, an audience member began recording Anne-Sophie Mutter while she was performing the Beethoven's Violin Concerto. In the middle of the second movement Mutter stopped playing and confronted the audience member. Of course, this isn't the first time that the audience was confronted for their use of cell phones during a show - see Broadway. [laughter] And if you've ever been to a performance concert or even the movies you've probably seen cell phone use during the show too.

Alyssa: Oh, I know I have.

Grace: Now Broadway shows, arts organizations, and even schools are beginning to respond to cell phone use during events with the Yondr pouch. The pouch works by placing the phone inside the pouch and then the pouch is locked, similar to a security tag you'd find in clothing stores. You keep the pouch with you the entire time, but only key members of staff or security can unlock the Yondr pouch once it has been locked. This is done by simply taping the electronic lock on an electronic base. Once the performance or school day is complete, the cell phone owners will go back through security, have the pouch unlocked, and then the pouch is returned to the or-, to the organization.

Alyssa: You know, Grace, I have to be 100% honest with you, I spoke with a couple of people about this and they are fans of the Yondr pouch. They think this is a, this is a great idea! But, but, you know, I'm not so sure if I think that it's a really good idea because in some situations where, if you do not want your show recorded and leaked, or if you really need that distraction free environment, then the Yondr patch is great for that it certainly addresses. But maybe it's not the solution to a much bigger social problem that's occurring and that is over attachment to our electronic devices, or the lack of following directions. What's even worse, if you force your audience to use the Youndr patches, then maybe it's sending a message that you don't trust your audience to not use their phones even with direction saying otherwise. What do you think?

That's a loaded question. [laughter]

Grace: Yeah, I think in terms of how I feel about this kind of ploy, this kind of tactic to minimize the recording, the distraction, um, I can see how it would be very, very beneficial. However, I also, I also understand the concerns that fall behind it, um, specifically for those that are thinking in terms of security or emergencies. And there is also an interesting bit: So Chris Jones of the Chicago Tribune did a review on the Yondr pouch during a performance. He remarked that the process for placing your phone into the pouch is impressively fast and non-invasive; however, there was concerns about how, you know if people want to use their phones, during intermission and start harassing ushers to get them unlocked, you only really have 15 minutes. And in terms of a safety concern, if you've got half the audience up trying to get to 10 different usher's maybe, let's say, let's say there's 10 who have the key. That is, that's a little concerning for me. I mean, not to say that this would actually happen, but you've got this massive group of people trying to get into a very small space. You know that, I don't know how fire marshals would feel about that within a theater.

Alyssa: I do actually have an answer for that. So, within the description, you mentioned that the unlocking process.

Grace: Right.

Alyssa: Where you have to click the yon-, you have to like take the Yondr pouch, like hit it against the base and it's unlocked. That process actually takes two seconds, believe it or not, so you hit the base the patch is out, you're pretty much gone. And yeah, there was the one comment from Chris Jones where the process of placing your phone into the pouch in and taking out is indeed impressively fast and non-invasive. But I do also understand your concerns for safety like the fire marshal, for instance.

Grace: Yeah, not so much about the actual patch itself because if there's a decent number of staff members who have this bar that can unlock it and they're stationed in key areas, then that's, that's helpful. That makes sense. Now, I personally don't know how expensive it is for the bar itself…

Alyssa: Um, let's see, I can partially answer that question for at least like for the cost of the pouch itself. According to Katie bring them a CNBC, a Yondr pouch in schools costs about 15 to $30 per student, depending on the school size but that it can be as low as $2 per pouch like for each person.

Grace: So potentially cost effective. So then I think I think then that does go with my point of if there's a decent number of those bars stationed in key areas, maybe that grouping that, that crowd of people coming to try and unlock their phones wouldn’t, won't be so bad. Plus there is there is something to be said potentially about knowing, having that knowledge that you only have 15 minutes and you know that you'll have to go to that person, get them to unlock it, and then you have to go back to get them to lock it too – people might not actually do that. They might actually be discouraged to do that. Now, I'm not saying that they would be, but it's possible that maybe the Yondr pouch would help foster that sort of, you know, detachment for an hour or two from your device and focusing on the performance itself. Because I do agree with you. I think there is there's the social context to this about device reliance, for sure.

Alyssa: I can add on to that point but the first thing I do want to mention is that there is another way that an organization can approach this and that's by having, instead, a designated area within the building for anybody who wants to use their phone in an emergency. This comes from an article from Alice Gregory of Wired, where witnesses did report seeing such an area, but one unnamed witness described it as very similar to a smoking area. So, it is possible but there is a slight negative connotation that may come with that. That being said, there are a lot of shows out there that are having very successful shows with the Yondr pouch. Lin Manuel Miranda’s “Freestyle Love Supreme” on Broadway uses these Yondr pouches and do have success with them.

 Grace: And I think too, there is definitely something to be said about really making sure that the in terms of whether it's recording, like dealing with illegal recording and things like that, and just the respect of an artist’s art form and that performance, that these Yondr pouches, thinking from that standpoint really makes sense. Not that a theater can never trust its audience, but I think it's just one extra safeguard to ensure that whatever liabilities they themselves have when it comes to putting on a performance and protecting the artists and the artists rights…

Alyssa: Oh, yes.

Grace: I think that, that is that is a valid concern and a valid reason to use the Yondr pouch. Plus, we've seen that if multiple Broadway shows are using it, well, people are clearly going, and there may be some slight discomfort at first, but Meghan McMonigle and Rich Demuro mentioned that in a report they did that Rise Kohyang High School students were asked to use this Yondr pouch and while there was some initial hesitation, the pouch overall was really well received and successful. Um, the students were reported talking to each other more and the environment was a lot more distraction free. So on that same vine, I think theaters are seeing something that as much as we are attached to our devices and as much as technology can be useful within the arts, this may be one space where, at least from the audience side, we should, we should really consider either using the Yondr pouch or just stepping away from our devices for a little while.

Alyssa: Oh my goodness, the actual-, I feel like the actual, like, real solution to having people like step away from their devices like, the Yondr pouch doesn't really solve that, like it's rather, it's rather a mechanism like to temporarily like get people off of their phones like during performances. I think that if arts organizations do indeed want to use a Yondr pouch, there is something to be said about explaining to your audience why they have to, whether that is the artist wishes in which they do-, like their ,their rights and their, where their rights are, like, they need to very much protect their rights. Or there's a surprise element in the show that they really do not want to be leaked out to the general public. And, you know, it could be as simple as saying, you know, it's these rights that we have to protect, or you can even make it a personal call. You can use the movie theater as an instance saying, like, you know, you don't, you don't want people distracting you while you're at the movies, like, why do you want people distracting you while you're at the concert?

Grace: Right. And reasoning usually works well, if you give people a reason. While they may not necessarily agree with that reason, I think, at least in my experience, they're much more likely to go along with what you're wanting them to do. So that that makes a lot of sense, I think.

Alyssa: Yeah. Well, it's a matter of like that very clear communication, especially in instances-

Grace: They don't like surprises, audiences, at least from that standpoint. They love, they love spectac-, spectacular surprises when it comes to the stage craft but I think from that standpoint, expectations, they don't like surprises when it comes to that.

Alyssa: Oh, yeah, as long as you can communicate well, that is

Grace: Exactly, exactly.

Alyssa: All right. Well, one last thing that I want to say before we wrap up this episode, we at AMT Lab are not sponsored by the Yondr company. Our goal is not to encourage nor prevent anyone from using the Yondr pouch, rather we are here to talk about its pros and cons within the arts world and in society. So if you are in administration and you're considering using the Yondr pouch for your school or for your performance, it's ultimately up to you and whether you feel it is worth it to use it in your organization or your event.

Grace: And if you are someone who has actually used the Yondr pouch as part of an event, we'd love for you to comment below and give us your experience, you know, comments that you heard from audience attendees, that sort of thing. So, we'd love to hear from you as well on that side.

Alyssa: Oh yeah, especially if it enlightened your experience or if it took away from the experience. All right. Well, hey, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Let's Talk: Tech In The Arts.

Coming up on the AMT Lab website: So, we have the third and final part of the inclusivity and video game industry article from the Master of Entertainment Industry Management capstone project (CMU). This conclusion will include recommendations on how to approach diversity and avoid bias within the video game industry. For White Paper Wednesday contributor Lauren Cornwell will discuss how the performing arts can utilize AI as an audience engagement tool. And finally, contributor Luna Hu will review her trip to the Barnes Foundation, including use of the Barnes app with image recognition, language translations, and audience engagement.

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Thanks for listening to the Arts Management and Technology Lab podcast series. You can read more on the intersection between the arts and technology at www.amt-lab-org. Or you can listen to more interviews and discussions and our podcast series on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or Stitcher. Thank you for joining us.

[Closing musical interlude]

Transcription for AMT Lab’s Podcast Series is supported by Otter.AI.